Jan 26 2010
Pinnacle Notes 3 Redemption Value
Based on the letter from Morgan Stanley about a week ago, each Pinnacle Notes Series 3 investor will get back US$152.51 and US99.23 (to be converted to SGD) for tranche A and B respectively.
This redemption value is based on a capital of US$5000 and S$5000 for tranche A and B respectively. This works out to be about 3% of the original investment amount. Unfortunately, for those who did not know about the exact nature of the Pinnacle Notes, they will be in for a nasty surprise.
What about the others such as “minibombs” ? Any news on their redemption or residual values?
Thanks.
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lioninvestor Reply:
January 26th, 2010 at 10:38 am
Hi Jasmin,
No news on Minibombs yet….
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lioninvestor Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 9:00 am
Hi Jasmin,
Minibond values are out:
http://www.lioninvestor.com/minibond-payout-values/
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I wonder why there is no news on the minibonds, are they dragging their feet. They said it would be liquidated a few months times. I wonder if the MAS is monitoring this and will they exert their authority
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lioninvestor Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 9:00 am
Hi Sureesh,
Minibond values are out:
http://www.lioninvestor.com/minibond-payout-values/
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why bother to have the redemption? it’s like rubbing salt on wounds! so pathetic … might as well don’t get! puke.
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what about the other pinnacle notes such as 6 and 7?
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lioninvestor Reply:
January 29th, 2010 at 10:45 am
Hi php,
Currently, there is no mandatory redemption for series 6 and 7 yet so they will still continue to run.
As of 22/01/10, Morgan Stanley have given them an indicative price of 1%. Meaning if you surrender it now, you get back 1% of your capital.
http://www.morganstanley.com/pinnaclenotes/pdf/series6-7/Pinnacle6_Historical_Pricing_Information.pdf
http://www.morganstanley.com/pinnaclenotes/pdf/series6-7/Pinnacle7_Historical_Pricing_Information.pdf
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I like to know if there is no mandatory redemption event up to the maturity date in 3 years time , will we get back 100 % of the capital.
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lioninvestor Reply:
January 29th, 2010 at 1:40 pm
Hi sureesh,
which series are you referring to?
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sureesh Reply:
January 30th, 2010 at 7:40 pm
mine is series 6, I invested 60k, am real worried.
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My mum is a chinese-educated victim above 65 yrs old. She, like many others, were duped into buying PN 6 by the RM with empty promises of “guaranteed” and “stable” when she went to the bank to renew her FD. Her total amount cheated was $100k.
We followed the recommendations given by this website and KL Tan, wrote a letter of complaint of mis-selling, and after a gruelling wait for 1 year, 2 interviews, sleepless nights, the FI only offered my mum 50% compensation. 50% of the PN6 they force us to keep. If we don’t accept their offer out of their so-called “goodwill”, and go to FIDREC or the courts, this offer won’t be open anymore. So basically, they have played a game such that the compensation offered is quite “attractive” but it still makes us feel very pinched and punished for their crimes.
As the FIDREC is only in jurisdiction of amounts $50k and below, I am hoping people (or similar victims) who read this forum can give me some advice.
1. This is retirement money for my mother. She cannot read English, signed the forms without even bringing her reading glasses. I don’t know how strong is her case, but the S.O.B RM told her that this is just like FD with a longer tenure. She was completely and innocently duped into buying this crap.
2. Did FIDREC ever help any of you investors obtain a claim greater than $50k or >50%?
3. Is this FIDREC just some other scam by the frakking PAP to show that they are sort of “upholding” the law, helping the victims, yet in fact it is just another puppet organization who is out to pocket some money from the FIs, protect FIs, waste the small investors’ time, and cheat their hard-earned money?
4. Has any of the class action suits been successful? How much money do we need to spend to engage a lawyer? Estimated costs if we lose?
5. How likely is PN6 going to enter a mandatory redemption? What is the redemption value for the rest of the PN that have gone through a mandatory redemption?
6. What is the rate of compensation for most victims? Did anyone receive compensation > $50k before? Could everyone share?
7. Do you think we should just accept their offer and let the matter close?
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lioninvestor Reply:
February 22nd, 2010 at 11:37 pm
Hi frakpap,
the current indicative pricing for PN6 is 1% of the face value. Depending on the recovery value of the remaining defaults, it can take at least one more default (among the basket of 100+ underlying entities) from now till maturity. If it really hits the threshold, expect to get back 1% or even less.
I remember reading in one of the comments of someone going to Fidrec and getting slightly more than what he was offered by the FI. Not knowing English seems like a plus point in your favor.
There’s one similar case to yours in the comments here:
http://www.lioninvestor.com/pinnacle-notes-9-and-10-default/
You might want to try writing to him.
You can also repost your comment here and see whether you can get replies:
http://www.lioninvestor.com/pinnacle-notes-default/
The Pinnacle class action suit seems to have stalled due to lack of numbers.
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lioninvestor Reply:
February 22nd, 2010 at 11:43 pm
http://www.lioninvestor.com/proposed-pinnacle-class-action/
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lioninvestor Reply:
February 22nd, 2010 at 11:51 pm
Settlement numbers to be used as reference
http://www.mas.gov.sg/resource/news_room/press_releases/2009/Annex%202.pdf
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JL Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 4:27 pm
I have gone thru’ Fidrec adjudications. Indeed, it is very stressful for all the victims. Besides, drafting and analysing the documents to rebut the FIs, u also have to depend on your luck which judge is taking yr case.
Heard there is a “Mad” judge there that scolded victims until they gve up! I do not understand what is going on in this S’pore system here, causing all the victims to go throu’ so much stress. So far I have not heard of anyone that awarded more than 50% by Fidrec. Besides, Fidrec only cap up to $50K, so those abv that invested amt have to accept the lower claims. Hope the turn up for the US laywer to fight our case is strong, else, there is no way we could recoup majority of our losses, esp in Pinnacle Notes. Also heard that these fraud notes cannot make it to mature, as it is meant to con us. Thanks to MAS, we need to salute them for approving such products in S’pore and then wash their hands off now!
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Testwater Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:48 am
Hi JL
Thanks for sharing your experience. Does the 50% compensation include the interest previously received?
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JL Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 12:53 pm
It again depends on the judge. In my 1st adjudication, judge ask to less out the interest. 2nd adjudication agt different FI, I get to keep the int. The FI still has the cheek to ask whether need to less the interest at that point when the award was read out ! Fyi, my 1st adj was very early last yr …. subsequently, heard that the award was more and more generous, perhaps HK side has better compensations than us without the need to go thru’ all these stress !
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Testwater Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 1:49 pm
Luck you
i need to pray hard for a good judge then. Just don’t understand why they can’t even streamline the decision whether previous interest is to be less out or not.. hopefully by now they have become experts in handling such cases and have some kind of SOP.. haz..
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Testwater Reply:
March 10th, 2010 at 7:57 am
Hi JL,
You mentioned about drafting and analysing the documents to rebut the FIs, do we get to prepare this in advance or when we go before the judge? Do we get to see the FI’s investigation report at all?
During the mediation process, FIDReC is now offering to put up case to FI for me for 25% Compensation (inclusive of interest and redemption amt received). So considering the pros and cons whether to accept offer or continue with adjudication. My profile is “moderately low risk”, but FIDReC says may not have a strong case as i am supposed to be educated and and should have read and understood the prospectus documents and asked all the questions before investing…
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I am a victim of the PN3. Lodged a complain in Dec 2009 with Hong Leong Finance which sold me the product and went through 1 hour + of interview by the FI. Just received letter last week saying they have reviewed the case and are NOT compensating in any way!! I still have the risk profile completed by HL at point of purchase 3 years back and my rating was moderately conservative. They deny any mis-selling of the high risk product probably because I am educated and working (not retired or illiterate). I believe HL got the longest ban of 2 years by MAS from selling investment products.
I have submitted the case online to FIDREC and pending their response. Hope at least to get back some justice.
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FIDReC’s turnaround time is pretty fast. I received their reply in 3 working days. FIDReC is reviewing my case and have asked Hong Leong Finance for their investigation report. The process is expected to take 3-4 weeks. Will update again when I hear from them.
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Class action in America
Kirby McInerney, the US law firm that is willing to organize a class action to seek compensation in the US on behalf of the investors. They need to have sufficient investors to make the effort viable.
KM needs to have some team leaders (of the investors) to come forward to approach the distributors, e.g., DBS Bank, ABN, Hong Leong Finance, Phillip Securities, UOB, OCBC Securities, CIMB GK, to get them to individually or collectively engage KM to review the cases quickly and if fraud could be substantiated, to file class action litigation cases at the US courts to recover the losses. This would be an ideal outcome.
Timing is of the essence. The faster KM is engaged to file the law suit in the US, the chances of success would be higher. The amount to be recovered would also be higher.
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lioninvestor Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 9:53 pm
Rather than getting individual investors to come forward, shouldn’t MAS and the FI coordinate this?
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If the size of the class is large enough, i.e., combined losses of let say in excess of US$50m (this value is decided by the US law firm), then if fraud by the US Securities can be established, then the US Law firm, Kirby McInerney (KM) would charge only success fees to file the law suit in the US courts to recover the losses. This means that you need not pay a single cent to engage KM.
In the event that the law suit in the US is unsuccessful, all the investors and the 3rd party reseller (our local financial institutions) in the class need not have to pay a single cent to KM. KM bears all the risks and costs.
In essence, you can only win by engaging KM because they will only take on cases that fraud can be established. KM with 60 years of experience, can truly claim that they are the oldest law firm in the US for investment loss recovery.
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Setting aside the differences between FIs and investors, the KM lawyers platform is an excellent way to recover the millions from Lehman. The immoral profit gain from buying over the Notes at a huge discount during the initial FIDREC adjudication is not enough to cover the millions of Notes loss owned by the FIs.
KM needs numbers & investment amount to pursue Notes’ owners fraud. Last year, it was tough to get victims involvement e.g. 250 for MIAG and after the fee increased, the number went down to 160. Pinnacle is trying to get enough people to sue. Leonard Loo’s 250 seems to have evaporated. DBS HN5 succeeded in getting 200 people. So where are the initial 10,000 people?
To make things worst, a high number of people took back a significant amount through residue value & compensation thus making the effort to start this class action in US tougher.
With no cost upfront, investors and FIs should join hand and help KM succeed in suing Lehman in USA.
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FIDREC has acted quickly and referred my complaint to HLF. This morning, I received a call from HLF asking if i am willing to settle for 5%-10% compansation and mentioned about the long process of court hearing bla bla bla if i were to pursue the case with FIDReC. Guess trying to dissuade me from persueing the case. Am just thinking why the sudden change of heart by HLF? Guess they are hoping the clients won’t take further action with a small compensation. But 5%-10% is really miserable.
Does anyone has any info on the previous compensation rate offered by the FIs? Any comments will really be helpful and appreciated. I need to revert to HLF in 1 or 2 days. They keep saying it will be difficult to get higher compensation.. i am not sure. Thanks.
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lioninvestor Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 3:58 pm
Hi testwater,
http://www.mas.gov.sg/resource/news_room/press_releases/2009/Annex%202.pdf
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Testwater Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 4:25 pm
Hi Lioninvestor,
Thanks heaps for the stats. Its very useful.
Have also spoken to a FIDReC person and she agrees that 5%-10% offered by HLF is pathetic. So have more or less made up my mind not to accept HLF’s offer and continue with claim thru FIDReC. Any recovery amount above 5%-10% will be a bonus. Hope it won’t be less then that
Thanks again.
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grace Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 6:10 pm
Hi Testwater,
It is too low the offer. If you profile is “conservative” or “moderatively conservative”, you have a better case with FIDREC adjustication and can seek a better compensation. I was offered 50% for PN S7 without going through FIDREC adjustication and I regret – I think for those with such rating – they have a better position to get higher compensation.
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Testwater Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 1:43 pm
Hi Grace,
Yes, my profile is “moderately conservative”, yet HLF offered zero compensation. That’s why i am trying my luck with FIDReC. If the FI had offered me 50% upfront, i might probably have accepted, w/o having to go thru the long process..
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Testwater Reply:
March 10th, 2010 at 8:06 am
Hi Grace,
Wld it be possible to advise which FI you bought the PN S7 from?
HLF is not so generous, even sneaky i wld say. Initially offer zero compensation in their reply letter. Then when i went to FIDReC, FI called and offered 5%-10%, and now they told FIDReC they are willing to consider 20% (inclusive of previous interest n redemption amt received).
FIDReC now offering to put up case to FI for me for 25% Compensation. So considering the pros and cons whether to accept offer or continue with adjudication. My profile is “moderately low risk”, but FIDReC says may not have a strong case as i am supposed to be educated and and should have read and understood the prospectus documents and asked all the questions before investing…
Thanks much..
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grace Reply:
March 10th, 2010 at 9:05 pm
Hi testwater,
The FI is the same FI you mentioned. I am surprised they offered upfront without going through FIDREC adjundication. I will suggest you go through that since it is only paying $50 and believe you have a higher compensation. You are rated “moderately low risk” and this product is a high-risk product. They can’t deny they are selling to the wrong group of customers.
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For PN series 6, there is another credit event. From Aiful corporation, This has not resulted in a redumption of the notes yet.
But another company Ambac financial is alo in serious trouble and may go bankrupt. When that happends in this year ot next year, the we will get nothing back. Be prepared for this.
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I have not got back a single cent for my Pinnacle S3 that has already gone bust ….. has anyone received the pyt ?
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Testwater Reply:
March 10th, 2010 at 8:08 am
Hi JL,
Mine is the PN S3 too, bought with HLF. Which FI you got from?
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JL Reply:
March 10th, 2010 at 9:08 am
Bought from IFA that link to OSPL. Both pushing their liabilities and Fidrec ask to go after both. Now still pending !
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Testwater Reply:
March 10th, 2010 at 11:06 am
With previous experience on 2 adjudications, how would assess the chances of compensation with this PN S3? Thanks
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JL Reply:
March 10th, 2010 at 12:51 pm
Frankly, after the residual values for Minibomb is out, all things seem to have died down. So far heard only 1 case for PN compensated 30% by Fidrec. Any email address that I can contact you to brief u the adjudication process ?
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Testwater Reply:
March 10th, 2010 at 5:55 pm
hi JL,
my email is tlims77@yahoo.com… thanx heaps!
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MD Reply:
March 10th, 2010 at 10:01 pm
Hi JL,
Is your PN S3 deposited in your CDP account or held by IFA/OSPL ?
If your PN S3 is deposited in your CDP account, it should appear in your CDP statement.
If I read their letter correctly, seems like SGD 138.99 will be paid to CDP on 27Jan 2010.
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