Apr 28 2009
Genneva Gold
Someone sent me a question to ask me about Genneva Gold Sdn Bhd.
According to the information on the website, Genneva Gold sells you Gold Bullion at a 2% discount to the market price with a buy-back guarantee.
At the end of one month, the buyer can
- Sell buy the gold to Genneva Gold at the market price based on the time he bought (thus making an immediate 2% profit)
- Keep the Gold Bullion.
- Rollover. Meaning do step one and buy a new Gold Bullion at a 2% discount to the current market price.
The deal seems too good to be true because the company is essentially selling you gold at a 2% discount and giving you a free put option.
There doesn’t seem to be any downside for the investor. If the price of gold goes down, he can sell it back to the company. If the price of gold goes up, he can keep the gold and sell it on a secondary market by himself.
genneva gold
Anyone considering this investment should ask important questions like:
- How does Genneva Gold generate revenue/profit from this entire transaction?
- Assuming an investor does just the bare minimum and rollovers his investment for 12 months, he would have made a 24% return. How does Genneva Gold substain this payout?
- How do you verify that the gold you receive is worth its weight in gold?
There is a “Terms and Conditions” to the 2% discount thing though. I would be interested to know what they are.
Click here to leave a comment.
So is the scheme real cos it sounds too good to be true.
Reply
lioninvestor Reply:
May 12th, 2009 at 11:51 pm
Hi Chai,
On a personal basis, I would avoid.
Reply
WE Reply:
January 21st, 2010 at 2:03 pm
Hi
I’m an investor with Genneva. Have been participating for near to a yr.
Read the comments. The gold i am holding on are predominantly Swiss gold – some w UOB wrapper and all serial numbered – authenticated.
Was skeptical so brought to goldsmith shops to test and all offered me cash should i sell it to them.
Check out websites and also talked to friends who deal in gold and realise gold cannot be counterfeited. People can fake gold with tungsten etc but it is practically impossible/ not cost effective to do it. Esp with up to 1kg bar.
Indeed, knowledge is power. We can discuss and talk all days and no actions. Try out if after assessing your risk, is within your control; don’t do it if do not have the means and seek knowledge if we lack of it.
There are different types of people :
1. People watching things happen
2. People waiting for things to happen
3. People making things happen
4. worst – some people wondering what has happened.
It takes pure gold to fake gold to give required weight etc.
From experience as investor in various commodities, one should ask what we are promised with – a written promise(paper) or holding on to something of value in case company defaults on their promises.
People who gave their comments here came from diff backgrounds and varied motives. I respect that..
I am here to share what i know, not advocating anything.
All are given choices and you have one too.
Reply
TS Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 10:00 am
I am wondering how the company can sustain the payout> i invested in Gold Label since last year and is thinking of pull out my investment. Do you know Gold Label scheme?
Reply
Jolie Reply:
May 27th, 2009 at 5:26 pm
Chai,
It sounds too good to be true, but need to dig for more informations about that 2% return per/month and related terms n conditions stated in sales agreement. Think so?
Regards,
Jolie
Reply
Mubaybee Reply:
September 25th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
too good to be true? why is that so?
say if DBS is to give you a 1% interest for your money kept in fix deposit, would you actually question why and where the bank is getting the money from and why are them giving you so much, you would probably just flipped isnt it? i would probably just dump my money and wait for month end where i can enjoy my 2% rebate?
why adults like you people are making such a big hoo-haa about genneva? 470 over debates? madness.
what spark this off? Did genneva ran away with the money and close down?
Did anyone got con and after cry under their blanket realise it didnt help that’s why vented their anger on this website?
Oh come’on, no money to invest yourself, why stop others from making BIG money BIG money. Face it.
you guys are making me angry!
Reply
JT Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 4:13 pm
I’m a agent from Genneva.
Email me if you need any quiries to be solve.
Remember, there is no silly questions
Reply
peng Reply:
June 22nd, 2010 at 9:35 am
I thought Genneva com. had stop operating after the investigation…
Reply
LK Reply:
July 19th, 2010 at 1:32 pm
Hi, just want to find out? What is the status of our investments now after the Bank Negara investigations?
Reply
Hi Lioninvestor,
May I consult you that why gold & oil price are reflected to each other, is it becoz of purchase oil by gold?
Your advise:
Gold-Oil Ratio = Price of Gold (per oz.) / Price of Crude Oil (per barrel)
Where can I find the ratio chart for the past 10 or 20 yrs ago of gold perfomance?
Please advise, thanks
Reply
lioninvestor Reply:
May 19th, 2009 at 10:46 pm
Hi Jolie,
I think your comment is in the wrong post.
The chart can be found in the post itself.
http://www.lioninvestor.com/correlation-between-gold-and-oil/
Reply
Jolie Reply:
May 27th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
Thanks
Reply
swyang Reply:
July 5th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
pls get it at http://www.kitco.com/charts/livegold.html
Reply
Why avoid? As an investor, does it really matter how Genneva generates the revenue/profit or sustains the payout? Personally, what matters most is Q.3: whether gold received is worth its weight in gold.
This is easy to verify. A simple way is explained here: http://www.blurtit.com/q756113.html
This is not something difficult to find out, therefore making it difficut to fake. There are even electronic tester available nowadays.
Once Q.3 is dealt with, as investor, I would not bother much on Q.1 and Q.2 as long as I receive my return of 2% a month. Even if I don’t get the promised return for whatever possible reason, it will not affect me much. You mentioned earlier, “If the price of gold goes down, he can sell it back to the company. If the price of gold goes up, he can keep the gold and sell it on a secondary market by himself.”
So really, there is nothing much to lose. An investment worth investing.
Reply
lioninvestor Reply:
May 19th, 2009 at 10:44 pm
Hi Kelvin,
So, have you bought and tested out the gold?
Reply
Kelvin Reply:
May 20th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
Hi there,
Yes I have. Have been enjoying the return for the past 18 months.
Reply
lioninvestor Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 8:59 am
Btw, if you buy gold in Singapore, you are supposed to pay GST. Not too sure how the company goes around this.
Reply
oj Reply:
July 30th, 2010 at 12:10 am
Genneva is a GST registered company and the gold purchase is for trading purpose. End consumer will be charged GST but this company is operating on a different plane of business not the same compared to a traditional retail shop there not required to pay GST unless purchase under a company name. a special arrangement with IRAS.
Reply
Jolie Reply:
May 27th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
I think this “Genneva” company is not origin from S’pore but Malaysia, yet we still unable to know the real history and background of those directors behind the curtain.
Does anyone have anything to share about the board of directors? As I heard, Ng Poh Weng is one of the board director from Poh Kong Jewelry?
Who is Ng Poh Weng?
What does Ng Poh Weng do with Genneva?
Reply
Honda Reply:
February 12th, 2010 at 2:47 am
to what i know, as what i heard from my counterparts, After genneva was busted by bank negara, one of the directors formed Tig Net gold which has gone into serious shit of rm25m con job ( read the star 10 feb 2010) .
Subsequently now the directors of genneva has formed Samudera Gold, they claim to the public that Najib is involved with this co. If he really is involved, many also believe is for his hidden agendas, similar what has transpired on the submarine deals and the Mongolian girl.
Many believed that tig net was formed by genneva (but place 1 of their director as proxy) so they can transfer their opperations over but was also strucked with the same fate and therefor going for urgent close down and draged the investors money along, we believed they want to use it to finance the new company Samudera.
Reply
YSL Reply:
March 25th, 2010 at 12:34 pm
May i have yr email address & contact number ? want to ask you abt these Gold investment companies, which one was busted by bank negara so on so forth. Thanks
Reply
Jolie Reply:
May 27th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
Lion as “investor”, did you personally invest in gold so far?
Reply
lioninvestor Reply:
May 21st, 2009 at 8:58 am
The density test can be inaccurate as there are other metals with a close density to gold.
Density (g/cm3)
Rhenium – 21.02
Gold – 19.30
Tungsten – 19.25
Reply
Jolie Reply:
May 27th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
I found that Genneva’s website is not properly updated.
Yesterday, I purposely visited Genneva’s Head Office at Menara Maxis, sadly discovered that they’re not exist there at all.
I doubted that such company is very unprofessional, and truly uncapable in handling online data well. They can’t even understand the most basic and important information of a company
i.e. office address.
I felt that a lot of informations is not all clearly notify, as when I came across to 2% discount it is not clearly stated in any agreement / invoice.
A BIG QUESTION here is:
Why that 2-3% discount is not stated in the purchase order?
Why there’s no any terms & conditions agreement provided to my client? instead of giving just an INVOICE???
Reply
Albert Reply:
June 1st, 2009 at 12:14 am
The office is no longer in Menara Maxis. It has shifted to Jalan Kuchai Lama, KL since last year.
Well, what I suggest is to meet up in Genneva office in Jalan Kuchai Lama. I will share with you about the company history, transactions, discount rate, etc.
I can be reach at albert_chong08@yahoo.com
Reply
once again… anything too good to be true usually is.
anybody verified their claim (licensed is spelt wrongly)?
“GENNEVA is registered under the Accounting and
Corporate Regulatory Authority (ACRA)
and licenced by Police Licensing Department”
Reply
Jolie Reply:
May 27th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
FYI: Licence spelled with a “c” is perfectly correct in the U.K. and its environs. It’s spelled license with an “s” in the U.S.
As such, that’s not really a matter about it.
Reply
In Singapore, returns are 2%.
Apparently this is because of requirements imposed by MAS (Monetary Authority of Singapore)
No. 52A-1, Jalan Kuchai Maju 6
Off Jalan Kuchai Lama
58200 Kuala Lumpur
Malaysia
Tel: +603 7980 9993
Fax:+603 7980 3999
Reply
Mel Reply:
June 4th, 2009 at 9:04 am
I did the same as Jolie.
Yesterday called up Genneva’s headoffice phone no. in Menara Maxis found in website & found out it’s wrong no!
Chingy, can I call u to check on more about Genneva?
Is this your name I can look for when I call the office no?
Reply
i would agree with lion investor and Intheknow. This scheme is too good to to be true…
Reply
I am keen to know the question you posted and interest to find more how it works.
Thank you.
ham
Reply
This is a game for those who have extra money , for you to earn the 2 %, some huge amount of MONEY is needed for the start.
Last few day, the gold price is 55 dollar/gram, if you invest 300g,
plus 7% GST( will give back ), Pls calculate…….
Anyway, i had started to enjoy the 2% already…..HA HA HA
Reply
I just want to know how the Genneve can pay 4% discount every month and how the Genneva GUARANTEE the Golds if the investor dont want to have the Gold with them.
Reply
Mubaybee Reply:
September 25th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
since when there’s 4 % hello.
Reply
I am registered agent with GENNEVA Sdn. Bhd. I want to know why agents not given the username and pass word to access the website. At least I can monitored all my investors status with less paper work for me. This call we are professionals in deealing with investors?
Reply
Albert Reply:
June 7th, 2009 at 8:50 pm
Bhaas,
Call Genneva office and speak to their staff, that would be the right channel to get information.
Albert
Reply
They sell at 15% above spot for 500gm and 1000gm bars and 16% above spot for 100gm bars.
The premium is then used by Genneva to buy more gold. And at the end of the month you can choose to sell back at 2% gain from the price you bought or keep the physical bullion-which would be profitable if it increases more than 15% in 1 month.
Since that scenario is not likely, most of their clients would keep rolling over and paying 15% premiums while getting payouts of 2% monthly.
Not vested but checking it out.
Reply
myrexxx Reply:
June 17th, 2009 at 3:44 am
“They sell at 15% above spot for 500gm and 1000gm bars and 16% above spot for 100gm bars.”
do u mean to say that they are selling 15% higher than the actual market price?
i thought at the end of 3 months, u are given the choice of reinvesting and getting the 2% for another 3 months?
Reply
Oh and btw you hold the physical bullion purchased as collateral so that makes it safe and is why I’m investigating this as a viable alternative for gold investment.
Reply
hi lion investor,
is there any gold ETF available in singapore stock market? i personally felt that investing in golf ETF (if there is any) will have lower risk since it is regulated by SGX.
thanks,
alice
Reply
lioninvestor Reply:
June 17th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
http://www.sgx.com/wps/portal/marketplace/mp-en/prices_indices_statistics/securities/etfs
GLD 10US$
SPDR GOLD SHARES
(formerly: StreetTracks Gold Shares)
Reply
Folks:
Every investment comes with risk. The higher the return the risk will compound. Do not invest in anything unless you plan to lose it all. Just look at the meagre fixed deposit (0.125%/annum) in Singapore. Now… back to risk and reward, e.g buy SGD100,000 of Genneva gold will reap $24,000 per annum (24% per annum). Suppose the company went bust, you’re still holding the physical gold (assuming it’s genuine), you can sell the ingots to retailers minus 20%. That leaves SGD80,000 in your pocket. So what is it gonna be?
You can be an entrepreneur and invest in a retail franchise and go bust; lose the entire $100,000.
Last word of advise, if you don’t plan to lose don’t invest. If you do, be prepared to reap reward or lose it all. Treat it as a business investment not like your life depends on it.
Reply
Genneva origin from swizerland,
they got branch at KL about 2~3 years,
and open singapore branch at April 2008 until now.
orchard tower #05-21
i personally go question the manager and ask this and that,
how it operate..etc..
i somehow got faith, so i got invest 500 unit, so far so good,
actually they charge 20% of spot price, not really 15 or 16 %
so if company break down, u will loss 20% (if u sell the gold bar)
so to break even, need to do it for ten months (2% *10 ),
so depend on u whether want to take that risk.
if u need it, then do it, but not blind faith,
should call and goto office to question them until u have confidence,
else sit there and wait for hear say answer will never increase ur confidence.
Reply
jazz Reply:
July 16th, 2009 at 10:03 am
Genneva did not originated from Swizerland!
Reply
Mubaybee Reply:
September 25th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
whatever, it’s in Singapore now does it mean that if it’s from swizerland, it’s more believe-able? if so, i’ll open a shop there and bring it back to Singapore.
Swiss gold bar doesnt mean it’s from swizerland.
Reply
Aries Reply:
January 12th, 2010 at 6:23 pm
Joshua Ching,
U bought 500 units from Genneva in KL u said. Did the gold come with any assay certificate? What happened to your gold now that Genneva has been raided..
Aries
Reply
joshua ching Reply:
January 12th, 2010 at 11:04 pm
hi Aries
first of all, my apology for a mis-info:
-> genneva gold does not comes from switzerland, i am wrong, sorry =p
by the way, i buy in singapore branch, not in KL branch.
so far so good, singapore branch not yet collapse =p
i have hold and earn for 7 months. =)
what is assay cert?
i only got physical gold bar and a contract black and white.
anyway, i have liquid it all during last week and
get back all my cash already =)
bcos need some cash to rennovate house.
hm… whether it is safe or not, investigate and judge it yourself,
anyway if it collapse now, it wont affect me anymore.
that’s all i can say.
Reply
Honda Reply:
February 12th, 2010 at 2:56 am
Genneva was never from switzerland, i was their agent before i know. It was formed by a group of local chinese. there is no link to swiss at all
Reply
Wow! Never thought that my first comment on this issue would attract so many comments. I left my first comment and ever since never came back to this forum until now.
Hey, if you guys really want to know the real deal, I can be contacted at 012-5110741 or kelvin.genneva@gmail.com
The same comment as my first one: An investment worth investing, which investor will have nothing to lose unless price of gold goes down hill, which will never happen probably in the next 50 years.
I will be making a trip to Singapore in the near future. So please email me should you need to make an appointment to meet up. Or else, I am always available in Kuala Lumpur.
Regards,
Kelvin
Group Marketing Consultant
Reply
Joshua Ching’s reply explains it very well.
Quite a good and safe investment considering:
1. Hold physical gold – much better than gold ETF.
a) This is probably the most attractive as gold investment is a means to diversify into an asset that is liquid yet holds value should any paper currency plummet. Gold ETF is traded in US$…
b) You still hold physical gold even if Genneva goes bust.
c) Safer than savings, FD in bank if you buy more than SGD20,000 since only the first $20k is guaranteed in local banks.
d) Safer than any other gold investments such as UOB certificate, gold ETF, with added incentive of 2% rebate monthly for a slight premium.
2. 2% rebate monthly = breakeven in 10 months on premium assuming gold price remains the same on average. Very short time frame to earn profits. Good for those who want to divest savings into gold as well as generate monthly cash income. Significantly higher return than most other investments (ETF, uob gold savings account) where you only gain if gold price increases and still have to pay recurring management fee.
3. If gold price shoots up you can choose to keep the gold and sell on your own.
4. As long as Genneva is around they are also obligated contractually to buy back your gold at the price you paid inclusive premium less should you want out anytime. So if you want to stop investing in Genneva and gold price happens to plummet at the same time, you will still gain 2%.
Reply
i can’t believe there are people still believing in this sort of ’schemes’. i am not going to expliclitly state that word but you know what kind of ’scheme’ i am referring to.
if this scheme is true, there is no need for any gold fund managers in this world. everyone can just dump their money into this and earn 20% p.a.
i thought singapore newspapers and crimewatch have already been educating singaporeans about various schemes going on?
Reply
Its in the news recently. Bestino Group which has similar gold investment scheme in Malaysia was investigated by Bank Negara and Securities Commission for contravening some financing laws. Will be interesting to see what is outcome.
Reply
I’ve got an idea. Why don’t one of you report Genneva to the Consumer Affairs Department and let them check the business and perhaps come up with a recommendation. That sure ends a lot of sleepless nights for those who invested in this so called ‘potential of losing 20% of your capital scheme (if it’s genuine otherwise lose all)’.
Kelvin: Can you produce a report from CAD?
Reply
going to be another sunshine empire.
nuff said
Reply
jazz Reply:
July 16th, 2009 at 10:17 am
Don’t be such a “frog-in-the-well”.
It is right to view your concerns and opinions. However, just because others have different opinions, it does not necessary mean that they are against you!
Why do you equate Genneva with Sunshine Empire?
Does Sunshine Empire give you Pure Gold during the investment period?
Why do you pick on little things like incorrect spelling (licence vs license) when apparently you yoursellf do not command perfect English?
Reply
buyer aware, the word “guarantee” does not guarantee anything, i urge you read the real story about a recently-busted-scam
http://www.lioninvestor.com/wine-a-palatable-investment-by-saeed-shah/#comment-18857
Reply
What I see here is “SINGAPOREAN” …OMG!!!
This SHIT SING-MAN are all really KIASU!!!
You people are really sick!!!!
The whole scenario:
Did you get involved into Genneva?
Did you invested?
You guys are really sick!!! I don’t see anyone of KIASU-SING here are rich fella.. they are too careful, too believe is hear say answ and at the end of day ….. THEY DID NOTHING.
THEY JUST KNOW HOW TO PIN POINTING INVESTOR’S SENTIMENT!
Ask yourself, are you wealth enough? How much have you invested into gold investment?
I believe 95% of these KIASU-SING can’t even afford to buy a $2,000 gold jewelry for themselves, and they not even wear any precious gold jewelry as they lived until today!!!
BEAR IN MIND “KIASU-SINGA”:
Anytime, anywhere you are in risks.
Fall out of bed and die.
Drive out to work next morning, and hit by a truck.
Retrenched by your employer, anytime.
These are all risks happen around you everyday.
Think again! How much can you get rid from risk everyday???
So Live on your life, You are POOR!!!!! FOREVER YOU ARE POOR!
ASK YOURSELF: What do you gained for you life so far? since you keep worry of losing.
Reply
Yes agreed with Risktaker.
” Qiyo” is a double-headed snake. Trying to pretend that she knew a lot, end up she is just a poor woman with a sharp mouth…haha kakaka…
Reply
Updates: Commodity News 23/6/2009
“The long term technical & fundamental perspective for gold is still super bullish. The next price targets are the Fibonacci‐Extensions of the correction since March 2008 at 1250$ and 1600$. These should be reached until spring 2010.”
Please read more world news guys. Don’t let the poor people to guide you what to do for your future.
Reply
qiyo is probably one of the people who started genneva gold.
Reply
David_Circuit Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
So, there I told you… She’s the agent of Genneva Gold.
What her intention is to drive promotion here.
The moral of story told us that, these people used to say GREAT on the product which they involed in …. and last guess what when it collapse…
“Well, I can’t help further, see how the govement solve out the prob”
Reply
CaptainTee Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
ya..he was before and now here he come again.
Reply
This is an innovative concept to spur demand for physical gold and at the same time tapping people’s money to invest in gold for profit.
The company sold you 20% above the spot rate for the gold. By guaranteeing to buy back one month later, the company is effectively giving you a “free” put.
What the company will do is to buy a put in the financial market to cover the outstanding gold that was sold by using a small amount from the 20% margin.
One month later, if gold went up (which is unlikely to be more than 20% in a month), you surrender the physical gold back to the company at the guranteed price, but the gold is now worth more the the spot price the company paid one month ago. Thus the company makes a profit.
If gold went up more than 20%, and you sell in open market, the company is also not worse off, as the company has already sold you at 20% profit a month ago!
One month later, if gold came down, the company will exericse the financial put and covered in anyway.
Thus the company will make money whether gold goes up or down and this make the scheme workable!
The only thing is the company goes burst before the 10% return.
My advice is that to minimize the loss, choose only the smaller denomination gold, 100g gold bar is better than 1kg one because 1 kg gold bar should be retailed at lower margin than 100g, but the scheme pays the same price for all.
Reply
Hi friend,
The financial markets like commodities exchange will offer options or futures for gold. There are many players, related or not related to gold industry that are interested in the price of gold. Some will hold optimistic views while others may have pessimistic opionions on the direction of gold price.
So at a certain price, there will be people who will want to sell a put or call, if the company has to buy gold a month later at say $40, it will be to its interest to “preserve” the price of gold then, so it buys a put. If the price came down to only $30 a month later, the company who has a put is able to sell it to the other party at agreed price of $50. thus the company will not lose money.
Actually, the company is involved in gold production, thus it will need physical gold anyway. Investors with the gold collateral is actually ‘holding” the gold for the company for a month interest free. It is a certainty that the whole lot of gold sold this month will return to the company next month (as the 20% mark up will mean that investors not doing so is buying something 20% more expensive) irrespective of the gold price then (as the gold price will not rise 20% in a month). Thus, if price of gold is higher a month later, the company is buying back the gold at lower price of a month ago.
If the investor paid 20% more for the physical gold, it will mean that for every 4kg of gold the company sells to investors, the company will have 1kg of gold “free” of funding to be sent to factory for processing into finished products. The finished products will yield profit for the company.
Actually, the company needs to trade a certain quantity of gold to enjoy discounts from wholesaling economies of scale. Secondly, in order to enjoys maintain the tax incentive status, have to maintain a certain high trading volume. So the 2 % discount given to investors is covered by the tax and trading structures.
Also, the markup of 20% will mean the investor is acutally funding the company’s gold purchase to produce gold finished products.
In a nutshell, the scheme is actually investor loaning money to company. The gold collateral can only cover part of the amount loan, eg, the gold is worth only 8000 but the investor pay $10,000, the difference of $2000 is actually unsecured loan by the investor. The 2% discount is the interest the company pays for the loan.
It is up to you to consider if the 2% is worth the risk. Of course there are costs involved which eats into the 20% markup. But it looks workable, the company just have to be honest enough and well managed. If not, if anything goes wrong, the company will have millions of kg of gold sold at 20% markup eventually.
Reply
1. both genneva gold and sunshine empire offer guaranteed return schemes that are UNSUSTAINABLE in the medium to long run. The only logical deduction that can be made are the current investors being paid off with inflows from new investors.
2. my investment portfolio is made up of equities, bonds, structured products, and bank deposits. i do not invest via unit trusts.
Reply
goal_achiever Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
Hi intheknow,
How do you do?
I like to share with you of my ex-employment experiences in bank instituiton (investment sector).
Having read from in your statement here, I can see that your investments exposure are mostly high risk, as such you are referred as high-risk investor. I believe you are pretty much understood the game of “High Risk, High Return”. So, I can see that you can easily bare with market volatilities.
Speaking of UNSUSTAINABLE, i personally felt that when investments concerned, added investment strategy by fund/ investment manager, everything is subject to market performance as when financial crush, every excellent projection/proposal by manager lever is coded UNSUSTAINABLE too.
Investments all came with risks, sometime we need to diversify our appetite, as in your portfolio there are all risks product, even FD.
Do you know the Bank Negara’s compensation deal towards client, happened if bank goes bankrupt or under liquidation acts?
Assuming you placed a RM500k in structured prod for 7 years, happened if bank bankrupt, you only get compensated 50-60% onnly. Imagine if that $500k is in FD account? You only get back $250k.
In addtional, the strutured prod is also a rolling games, which rolled by bank for 7 years, yet 7 years the result is still pending and yet your profit is also reflected by tax.
Structured Products have caused bank a lot of headache as until now, because none of them are perfomed during financial turmoil like this. Yet, the bank keep launching new SP, just for the sake to keep them survice. At the end, clients long waiting hope is gone after capital refunded, then bank just say “bye bye, thank you for saving my business all these 7 years”.
Pleasse imagine how just a 50% of your $500k can work for you, if you purchase Gold from us, Genneva.
E.g: Gold purchase capital RM250k for 12 months tenure
@ 2.5% Bonus rebate monthly
= Your annual return is $75,000.00.
= Your annual return is $150,000.00 24 months tenure.
(Yet, please note that this is not an investment scheme, it’s a compliment discount on product that you purchased, meanwhile you keep the gold well, enjoy a tax free return)
Please don’t not get me wrong that I am promoting Genneva. It’s a commodity world trend now, so be in commodity
I hope my sharing does help you differentiate your portfolio. You did a great job, good diversification. Try something lower risk ..
You will feel much relax sometime, let the nett profit take you travel the world and see the beautiful sometime … Agreed?
Be happy, and have a nice day to you!
Reply
Let’s me give an example of the scheme using company X shares:
Share of company X selling at $1.00.
The organiser of the scheme, say GG, sells company X sells to you at $2.00 promising to buy back at 2.04 a month later.
Using the 2.00, GG buys 2 shares of company x, giving 1 share to you and keeping the other in GG account.
One month later, Company’s shares goes up to $1.20, you would have to redeem at GG the same amount of $2.04.
GG sold the 2 Company X shares at $1.20 each and gets $2.40, after giving you 2.04, GG profits 0.36.
In fact, GG will profit anyhow if company X shares is above $1 a month later. What if Company X shares goes down below $1, say $0.80? GG can hedge this risk by buying a put of Company X at $1.00.
Company X shares cannot be used to add value, except to profit by the price increase. But physical gold can be used within the month to become jewellery, bullion coins etc, which will add value to the physical gold.
Remember, GG did not have to buy the “ingredient” (gold) to make into gold products, its paid by you. After the gold finished product is sold to jewellery company, GG will make profit margin from there. At the end, GG has funds to pay you the meagre 2% interest.
And don;t forget the bulk quantity wholesale price GG gets from Gold traders. and the gold trader status enjoying tax incentives.
Reply
Compare this purchase with what we hv been buying from the goldsmith shop all this years.
You buy 100 gms from shop and return to them next day, you know how much they deduct?
Let’s say you decide to keep the gold bar for a year, how much you can make?
Compare this 2 scenario and give me your comment, thank you.
Reply
goal_achiever Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
Hi Friend,
I have working experience in gold manufac co also have dealed with some related gold retail shops/outlet.
If you sell or pawn your gold to retail/pawn shop, there will be a
5-15% of value deduction from the current price (after weight and gold quality / wear and tear examined) sometimes if in-exchange to another design of gold, the deduction can be negotiate lower.
My personal point of view is:
It’s worthless sometime if you buy costume gold jewelry because for the sake of design and trend, we still subject to be penalised by these terms of deductions. These deduction incurred due to custom tax / duty / workmanship / gold price and the authencity of gold.
I always encourage myself to purchase gold bullion/coins especially the suisse gold, PAMP Gold because of internationality standard, although it still subject to the hedged or down price while sell-off.
At Genneva, I can have a piece of mind from headaching gold price up & down, away from taxes and etc. I have personally purchased almost $50k, and my monthly steady income (tax-free) from Genneva is RM1000 above, and yet my capital will not be jeopardise.
To be frank, I hardly can get that income from my FD, which 52K placing in FD, I just earned interest of RM86.66 per annum. This is really sickening.
Therefore, I diversify some of my deposit into commodity, and the commodity is in no one hands but me. I can’t trust any bank’s fund manager and etc, because now the market are now flush with liquidity due lower interest rates, added investors sentiment has changed. Therefore, most convetional investor rather “sleep” on top of their cash without investing. This is a bad-sign, due inflation is getting higher, we need to duplicate our income before we ate up all our capital.
My happiest achivement was I have dealed up almost RM1mill in gold sales purchase at Genneva, they’re are all my precious VIP clients. They are fully satisfy with the product, current enjoying the reward and thankful to my utmost services.
Hoping I can extend my greatest experiences and sharing with you further pertaining to Genneva. Kindly response to me if you feel interested.
Thanks and best regards.
Reply
Albe Reply:
June 29th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
Hi,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Correct me if I am wrong, investment products from banks are taxable while buying gold with rebates, is not taxable in Malaysia? What is your view point in this area?
Reply
Positive Thoughts Sharing:
Most of the time we don’t see the thing that happened as we requested. We get disappointed, frustrated, at last we begin to become doubtful.
The doubtful of the feeling of disappointment.
Recognize that feeling and replace in a good thought like
“I knew it, I knew it … that’s too good to be true, and what if it is true?”
(1) Did I made it like others achieved?
(2) Am I still be the same as I was years back ago?
(3) Haven’t I achieved what I want in this life?
Most of the time we don’t allow ourselves to want what we truly want, and we did not give a chance to let it manifest.
We tend to say it simply “ Oh, this rever gonna make it, that never gonna approved it, I never gonna get that car, house etc.”
Please recharge your thought to everything is possible.
Nothing is impossible, just like we are communicating each other here even none of us ever met. Sounds logic right?
See how this creation amazingly changed the world.
Believe in yourselves then believe in others.
Reply
sorry to say, you guys are sounding exactly like timeshare and MLM companies by using ‘examples’ that are hard to verify.
very motivational and persuasive words they may be, but i have seen too many such schemes around to conclude that this is no different.
Prove me wrong. Get yourselves MAS regulated and I will even help you promote your scheme.
Reply
Hi Everyone,
I am really new to this forum and all but after reading all the comments, whether it is positive or negative, I would like to say a few words myself ….
After much debate of Genneva and their ‘marketing scheme’, it is up to us as an individual to decide what we want in life … the risk that we are willing to take and the desire that we have in ourselves that will determine how far we go ….
I am an great fan of ROBERT KIYOSAKI and his Rich Dad, Poor Dad series … as it show us clearly what are the differences between the rich, the middle class and the poor. After reading almost all his book … I came to realise that the only difference is ATTITUDE …
Sorry for saying but I think “Intheknow” is exactly like “poor dad” in the series .. He is not too bad .. an average Joe which made out the 95% of our population … He has a safe mindset and a “steady” life … which many people would die to have …
On the other hand, “Qiyo” is more like the “rich dad” .. he is ready to accept new changes and challenges and most importantly an open mindset to everything …
I guess average investors uses the traditional way of investing … investing in something “safe” … keep and hold … wait for many many years to get his return … but a great investor will consistenly look for new opportunities and take a huge amount of “calculated risk” …
Well thats all I want to say for now …. both is good …depending on what we desire in life ….
Reply
has the gold sold by Genneva been tested? by who?
i still think the scheme is unsustainable even though KHLOW outlined the possible workings of the company.
KHLOW says the company buys a put option on gold and thus is able to stay safe even if gold crashes. The problem is HOW CAN THE COMPANY PAY FOR THE GOLD OPTION. No doubt the company has received a 20% markup from the investor, but ultimately the company still has to pay for the gold option AS WELL as the guaranteed 2% profit (on top of the markup) to the investor.
Maths:
1st Jan (assume gold is $1000 per oz). Company received $1200 from investor and spends $100 to buy a Gold Put Option.
1st Feb (assume gold is $500 per oz). Company pays investor $1224 for gold worth $500). Company received $500 under put option.
NET POSITION = (-1000+1200-100-1224+500+500) = -$124. Company loses $124 which is the cost of the Gold Put Option + 2%.
1st Feb (assume gold is $2000 per oz). Company loses $100 which is the cost of the Gold Put Option.
NET POSTION = -$100.
Company is in a LOSE situation no matter what the price of gold is after a month. Thus, scheme is UNSUSTAINABLE FOR COMPANY!
Don’t add in factors like company is seeking a loan from investor or company is earning more than the ‘interest paid’ from its normal business. Fact is, if this company is as profitable as it seems, it would DEFINITELY be able to secure financing cheaper than the 24% p.a. cost it has to pay for this scheme from BANKS. If BANKS are not lending to this joker, you know why.
Reply
KHLow Reply:
July 1st, 2009 at 1:59 pm
When gold price goes up, say $1050, company still pay $1224,
Company will then have = (1050+266-15)-1224=77, even more as the gold price increase will favour only the company and not the investor (except if it goes up to more than 20% lah, then company also profit).
When gold price goes down, say $850/unit, company gets 850 +$150 (from put) + 266 – 15 -1224 = 27, still profit.
Reply
KHLow Reply:
July 1st, 2009 at 2:26 pm
Intheknow,
Let’s tackle one issue at a time:
1. Discount on bulk purchase:
It is well known fact that big volume purchase will entitle discount in any trade. If you search the website, you will find out many gold trading houses offering these discount, for example, one can easily get 3.5% discount for purchase of 2kg above.
Do you think Genneva cannot get more than this discount with the volume it is trading?
2. Mark up of 20%
No matter how the gold trade within the month, Genneva has already lock in the future price of gold in the sense that you have to sell the gold back to Genneva after a month. Thus, Genneva can even save on buying a futures? Genneva has to buy the gold for its manufacturing activity, with the certainty of gold price set, it can negotiate contract more confidently and not factor the price of gold fluctuation.
3. Hedging
The put with strike price close to current spot rate of gold is about 1.5% only, you can see the at http://www.nymex.com/gol_opt_csputs.aspx?product=OG&month=Q&year=9&list1=Q&list2=9&session=C&putcall=P&prefix=gol or just type gold options and find the price of put.
Not as much as you have indicated :10%.
The actual thing is this hedging is dynamic and continuous, Genneva can choose to close the put or exercise it daily to its advantage.
4. Value added from Gold products
As said, Genneva can use the “extra” money loan from investor, free of interest, to buy the gold and change it into gold products, like bullion coins, jewellery etc. This activity will generate profit for the company, So how you think the goldsmith make money selling the gold pieces? The goldsmith will make money because the mark up from pure gold bars are more than even to compensate the daily fluctuation of spot gold. Genneva has the added advantage of selling gold at retail price (the goldsmith margin) plus the daily fluctuation of gold price. See the 999.9 gold price listed by the goldsmith will not change daily, it is only when gold goes up to a certain band or down to certain band that the Gold Jewellery Association in Singapore will adjust the price. They don’t do it on a daily basis! But Genneva does, I think. So, imagine, the gold price is now S$40000/kg, and Goldsmith sells at S$50000/kg and Genneva follows at $50000/g, tomorrow, gold is at $40500/kg, GS still S$50000 but Genneva can up price to $50500, next month, when gold price is at S$45000/g, Genneva buys back from you at $50000, but would the 5000 considered profit? Note that kilo bar gold should be actually selling at discount around $47,000 than small piece jewellery.
With the above, let me try my maths:
Assume same gold price throughout
Spot gold is $1000/unit
Physical Gold Jewellery is $1200/unit
Gold price is $1000/unit.
G sells at $1200/unit
G has to pay $1224 one month later.
G got the 200 extra, pay $15 for hedging.
Left 1185, bought gold at discount of 3%, got 1.222units of gold, gave 1 unit to investor, manufacture the 0.222unit of gold..sold gold product with 10% nett margin, got back 0.222*1100=$244
One month later, total in hand :1000+244-15=1229
Pay investor = 1224
Profit = 5
Do the company needs to pay anything? No, it uses the loan money to generate profit, why no bank borrow? company has to have more or equivalent assets to get it. Since it cost the company nothing, why not have this scheme?
What I want to point out is that it can be workable and not ponzi scam which on paper cannot even work.
What is needed is that company must be honest and not to kill the goose to get the golden egg.
I have not invested in this and will only invest my own spare money to the amount of risk I am willing to take, well, even if the company really goes burst, having a few hundreds grammes of gold coins wouldn’t hurt me as buying from the goldsmith will cost me almost the same anyway.
When gold price goes up, say $1050, company still pay $1224,
Company will then have = (1050+244-15)-1224=55, even more as the gold price increase will favour only the company and not the investor (except if it goes up to more than 20% lah, then company also profit).
When gold price goes down, say $850/unit, company gets 850 +$150 (from put) + 244 – 15 -1224 = 5, still profit.(same as when price of gold remain same)
Reply
lioninvestor Reply:
July 8th, 2009 at 11:21 am
If the company can buy gold at a discount of 3% and sell it at a margin of 10%, they don’t need investors money at all.
Why pay 24% pa when you can borrow it from the bank at lower rates?
The 10% margin assumption is flawed as you are assuming there is unlimited buyers and the turnover time is fast enough.
If that is a given, the entire maths can be recalculated without the investor in the picture and the company would make much more money.
Reply
KHLow Reply:
July 8th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
With due respect, firstly, I stated that this is a way for the company to stimulate physical gold demand.
Without it, the company cannot achieve such a high sale volume. The goldsmiths mark up their gold jewellery price so make a certain percentage profit regardless of the price of gold (within a certain band). How much gold can the goldsmith sell a day to cover its fixed cost like rental and salary?
Some have pointed out that GG is like any goldsmith, in pricing (in fact higher) but anyway the price it sells is of no issue as it will guarantee buy back one month later (i understand it is different in malaysia).
As for bank loan, how much can the company loan? Qiyo said the company is making monthly sales above RM100million, do you think it can get that type of facility from bank without substantial assets?
Reply
Qiyo
Let me tell you the truth, you are not investing in gold but actually loaning the company money for a fixed return of 2% using gold a the collateral, whether gold is up or down, you will not benefit as it will not be more than 20% in a month.
If the company really get burst, you will have to wait for the gold to appreciate at least 20% for you to break even, assuming you have not get any 2% at all.
The problem with this scheme is that it will only worth the trouble if you invest more, so that time and effort is not wasted to change the gold every month. But if you invested too much, you risk holding more physical gold than you actually would like to. That’s the reason why I have not invested yet.
Reply
so has the gold been tested and certified by any international body?
i hear what Qiyo is saying about receiving collateral, but the gold bars given to investor are only good if they are certified 24k gold by a recognised body.
Reply
KHLow, for your example to work, you have assumed 3 points which may not be entirely true:
1. Company is able to immediately realise 10% margin on its gold purchase by making products.
2. It only costs 1.5% to buy an at-the-money put option (your link seems to suggest at least 2%, and what about trading costs?.
3. Company is able to buy gold at 3% discount from SPOT PRICE. I am not a physical gold trader, but it sounds weird that a company/gold smith is able to buy at a discount from SPOT, why would the seller sell at a discount from SPOT when the seller can sell in the exchange for the full SPOT price?
Even under your favourable assumptions, the nett margin to company is only 0.4% (5/1200), hardly a sustainable scheme.
Reply
KHLow Reply:
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:46 am
Intheknow
What I want to highlight is that the scheme seems workable within assumptions and not what you have said a pyramid and ponzi scheme which is 100% not workable and bound to collapse!
What actually the working of the company we do not know and what the actual costing of various components we would not know.
We can argue all the way till the cow and bulls come home and no end……
What I want to stress is that with or without Genneva Gold, the parent company will still trade gold, manufacture gold, sell gold. There are clear advantages for the company to have Genneva Gold to achieve certain economies of scale from buying, reduce risk by asking investor to hold the gold for them free of price fluctuations, cost of producing, volume of sales of gold products.
Reply
are we even sure the company Genneva Gold is an actual operating company and not a SHELL company that is opened for the purpose of operating this scheme?
Reply
After reading this forum .. I am kinda furious I would say
.. and I totally understand why some people never get rich .. because they have bad influence around them …
There are negative voices around everyone of us .. but we have a choice whether to follow this voices or evaluate the situation with a clear mindset …
I am not saying that we should jump to conclusion whenever something good came out .. it might be a scam .. it might be a trap … “it might be a shell company” … “it might not be pure gold” … “it might not sustain its business” …. but that might not be 100% bad
… we all have to learn from experience … thats how we succeed in life … Warren Buffet, Li Ka Shing, Donald Trump etc … they all went through it .. and what if u got burned a little ? .. U will come back stronger than ever …
Guys, god is fair and everyone has an equal chance to succeed in life … so stop whining and judging everything by its cover … lets get practical … analyze the whole situation, calculate the risk involved, make a good judgement, stick to a plan/strategy …. and GO !!
Reply
WINN Reply:
March 19th, 2010 at 3:45 pm
Plane89,
You got your points…. I’m already investing in GOLD – The Gold Label S/B for 9 mths already and satisfy with the returns. And YES more zeros in the bank account.
Alot said negativity on this investment but never bother to listen. So, I think before judging ones need to understand before judging….
Hope to get more return for more years to come…
Reply
The 100gm and 500gm gold bar is from PAMP Suisse of Switzerland with ASSAY certification and serial numbers. For 1kg bar it is from Argor Suisse also with ASSAY certification and serial numbers.
Reply
Qiyo,
I guess some people just shut their door too quickly to realise there is an opportunity waiting for them … and after they missed it, they start to complain and blame everyone and everything else except for themselves …
They start to realise that they should take on the opportunity once they come knocking … but soon enough they will repeat the same mistake again …
I’ve seen that many many times in life … What can I say ? .. Its your attitude that make you rich … (or poor in this sense …)
I am only 27 and I start to realise that I need to change 6 years ago … after I met my first billionaire friend … I would named him my “rich dad” … and ever since then I never looked back … Well I wouldn’t say that I am rich now but at least I have more zeros in my account now …
Reply
hi,
i think, reading this, is making me more confident to invest in it. I just called Kelvin and will consult him on this, thanks guys and gals…
Reply
Hi all,
I just got back from Genneva’ s office in Kuchai Lama with my friend who just redeemed his money and surrendered his gold bullion of 1 kg. He got his monthly payment so far and will only get a cheque tomorrow after verifications.
You know you can earn an extra 2% ie 2%+2.5%=4.5% per month if you chose not to take the gold home but to let them keep it. This is really risk taking to the fullest !
As long as people are putting in money everyday which it is so far because of the bullish sentiment of gold, this scheme will survive well. If gold falls to a say USD700 pe oz, you better get out even if you lose your rebate.
Reply
does anyone ever try sell the gold to the jewellery shop? like how much to lose if anything goes wrong with the company.
Reply
hahaha…
UAG and Maxmega just closed shop.
no prizes for guessing which suspicious scheme is next.
what audacity… comparing this with Warren Buffet..
HEY.. doesn’t that sound familar from Mr Sunshine Empire.. “I AM BETTER THAN WARREN BUFFET”.
your theories (typical MLM style) and mocking can only convince non sophisticated investors with insufficient banking and finance background. Anyone who has some financial knowledge will know this scheme is doomed to failure.
one phrase by Cherio which is very true: “As long as people are putting in money everyday which it is so far because of the bullish sentiment of gold, this scheme will survive well.”
Typical workings of a Ponzi scheme.
Reply
i came across this article talking about the gold investment…he stressed that gold is not suitable for buy-and-hold investment strategy, but its volatility should be traded.
http://www.avaresearch.com/article_details-291.html
i also watched a youtube video showing the inflation-adjusted gold price chart, which states that the current price of gold is at peak after inflationary-adjusted.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StIPhBHghU0
for those who understand the gold investment business, mind to share your view? i am new to investment and come here to learn.
Reply
I see those postings by the Genneva agents here touting their ware to innocent investors ! Buyers Beware, all that glitters is not gold …. sound just like the UAG wine investment !
Why risk your money with unknown companies when there are other less risky options to trade in gold.
Lioninvestor – maybe you can write an article on options for gold investment ?
Reply
Intheknow Reply:
July 8th, 2009 at 9:00 am
that’s the whole point.
the company may be using GOLD (something rock solid although I am still not 100% convinced the gold is real) to disguise a Ponzi scheme.
Reply
I am not an agent for Genneva but I just happened to invest a small portion with them and I checked with a few international gold smith to ensure that what I have is real gold (99.9%)…
I don’t understand why do Genneva go to such extend to disguise a Ponzi Scheme ? … They could done it differently …
Apart from that, one of Genneva’s director is Ng Poh Weng which happened to be the owner of POH KONG (One of the oldest and most reputable gold smith in Msia) .. I think that is trustworthy enough …
I know some of you got burn from some other investment and ponzi scheme etc .. but that doesn’t mean everything else is bad … There are no such thing as safe investment … like I mentioned again and again … CALCULATED RISK ….. that is my basic principle in investing …
Reply
i am lucky. i have NEVER been burnt by ponzi schemes or by structured product blowups so far.
WHY? because i know exactly what i am invested in.
Genneva gold, unfortunately, is something i would avoid.
Reply
Honda Reply:
February 12th, 2010 at 3:08 am
i do agree with u, i have a client whose money burnt in genneva when they struct by bank negara, however it is just rm 15k , my client commented that he also made loss in unit trusts, shares and a few reconized structured funds investment before,many even higher than 15k, therefor at the end of the day it didnt make any difference if u invest in gold or not. u still lose money if its meant to be. the safest place is FD.
Reply
The ONLY reason you have NEVER been burnt is because you are too afraid of anything new .. something which is out of your comfort zone … You tend to push every opportunity away without even analyzing the situation …
You only invest in something which is exactly at your level … Well like I said .. there is nothing wrong with that … and that is exactly why there are differences between the poor, middle class and the rich …
I am actually laughing because I can imagine how proud you are when you say that you have never been burnt so far … Its like my nephew telling me that he can ride a bike without falling off … Some might think that it is perfect … but to me it is a risk greater than any ponzi scheme … its why poor people can never be rich … because they are never willing to take risks … U know why my nephew said he has never fell off his bike ? .. because he riding a TRICYCLE !! …
Most of us tends to ride on a tricycle and tell the rest the benefit and advantage of it .. but they themselves will never realise what they are missing … I really pity them for not having a chance to ride something greater because they are so afraid of falling ….
Reply
lioninvestor Reply:
July 8th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Hi Plane89,
Kindly refrain from personal attacks. Thanks.
Reply
Joe Reply:
July 8th, 2009 at 7:41 pm
I don’t agree with your statement Plane89.
There is nothing wrong in fear of falling. This fear prevents us from harm and danger of the unknown. Why take risks to get a high when it probably can kill you ? Eg. you risk your life taking drugs to get a high, you enjoy the illusion while under the influence of drugs but in truth you might not be alive after the euphoria ! Another eg. your risk is high putting your money in am unknown investment company whereas you can lower the risks by putting it with another well-established company regulated by the authorities.
My point is we should take intelligent calculated risks and not blind risks. This is the reason why some people succeed and some fail in their risk ventures.
So one who takes unnecessary risks is not brave actually but just a very STUPID person ! LOL.
Reply
Hi Qiyo ..
Thanks for all your compliment … I guess there are some of us here that are really ambitious and we want to achieve something great in life … something that we can be really proud of … I am sure you have the same mindset just like us …
From the way you analyze the situation, I know I can learn alot from you and you can be a great mentor … Honestly, I am planning to go into full gear this year for property and other investment as I see the time is right …
Do you think it is possible for me to contact you via email or something to ask for advice ? .. It will be great if you can be my “mentor” and guide me along the way … Please let me know ….Thanks
Reply
hi there .. Don’t mean to make it sound like a personal attack. I apologize. Sorry ….
Reply
My auntie got burnt by this type of investment scheme !
She invested small sums and got her returns all right the 1st and 2nd time. The agent then cajouled her to put in a much larger sum the 3rd time, she believed him and felt confident too as she did get her returns the previous 2 times. So much so that she recommended her best friend to invest too.
Guess what happened later ! The company closed down after several months and she could not find the agent !! He just vanished into thin air ! No returns never mind, she and her friend lost their principal sums too !!
They bait you in by giving you returns initially but leave you high and dry when they get all your money hooked in ! Beware !
Reply
Mr B Reply:
May 31st, 2010 at 7:33 pm
The aunty of my friend’s neighbour too!
They invested in a company (can’t remember name), with x amount of money (can’t remember exactly how much) and for a period of time (don’t know how long lah)… . But basically to cut the story short, she lost money!
Just like me! I burnt almost 6 figures trading in futures within 2 weeks! Why no one in any forum told me to STAY AWAY from any futures trading?!!!
My money would have grew if I invested in gold!
Reply
Hi Qiyo,
I have participated in the same concept of gold investing (2%/mth) with another local SG company.
Can i know more about the commission structure for agents in Genneva?
For rest of the critics, there is no such investment that guarantees your lossess except this form of investment when you have real physical gold in your bare hands.
Look at lehman brothers, i suppose all of the investors are each given capital protection guarantee letters but what happen to their investment right now?
My take is this;
Even when this company collapse, I am guaranteed a loss of 20%. With this assurance, i can sleep better every night.
How about you?
Reply
Joe Reply:
July 9th, 2009 at 10:16 pm
UAG wine invesments were supposed to be guaranteed too – look what happened !
The point is why take risks with unknown foreign companies when there are other options that give you the same return ? Invest smartly, not blindly !
Reply
Honda Reply:
February 12th, 2010 at 3:12 am
absolutely nothing is guaranteed, the only 2 things is guaranteed in this world is tax and death
Reply
Joe Reply:
July 9th, 2009 at 10:17 pm
UAG wine investments were supposed to be guaranteed too – look what happened !
The point is why take risks with unknown foreign companies when there are other options that give you the same return ? Invest smartly, not blindly !
Reply
Plane89 – your reply to InTheKnow is not only rude but smirks of arrogance.
We will have the last laugh when this Genneva Gold Pozi scheme goes belly up and the truth is revealed !!! hahaha…..
Reply
Plane89 Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 11:20 am
Passerby,
- “i have NEVER been burnt by ponzi schemes or by structured product blowups so far, WHY? because i know exactly what i am invested in” –
If what I said is smirks of arrogance, what about the statement above ? …. Well think it for yourself .. but this will be my last reply since this forum is actually establish to let genuine investors to share their experience and learn at the same time … Not just pointing fingers and judging ….
Anyway, let me share a story with you ..
I have a friend who is really silly and I am sure you will agree with me …Why ? Because he is so silly to think that he can actually build his empire on a mountain …haha … At the age of 53 he is already a millionaire with his accumulated weatlh enough for 3 generations … but yet he sold his last piece of 810-hectare rubber estate worth 2.5 million and spent all his fortune to build a resort on a mountain !!! .. some unknown mountain where no one ever goes … named GUNUNG ULU KALI … He is really one crazy idiot, I cannot help but laugh at his stupidity (sounds familar?) … Well that’s what everyone said at that point of time , in the year 1971 …
Guess what do people say now ? … “He is just so lucky to have found the MOUNTAIN !!”, “You can only do what he did in the ’70’s”, ” You can’t do that now, there is no such opportunity anymore”,…. bla bla bla ……
If you are born in the ’70’s, do you think you will be the one laughing or supporting him ?… I think you know the answer very well …. that’s why only 1% of this world’s population are ultra rich … just like him …. (that’s why I learned to open myself to everything, even though it sounds impossible or seems to good to be true … that’s why I joined this forum as well .. to seek help from others with more experience than me – sadly to say that not many people here share the same mindset as me …)
Anyway, I have lots of friends like him … the other person that I know of …. is stupid enough to take over a company with one plane and 40 million in debt …. another crazy idiot …. I think you should know him as well … I just don’t understand why are there so many silly people around us and yet they are so successful … Any idea ?
Reply
Passerby Reply:
July 11th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Your vapourware theory does not hold water, just a lame effort trying to cook up some stories (yes, stories and not facts).
My idea is that you are probably a Genneva Gold agent in disguise here and not a genuine investor.
Reply
Intheknow Reply:
July 12th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
typical MLM tactics….
shame you….
give a 1 in a billion success story as an example…
Reply
Plane89 Reply:
July 13th, 2009 at 10:20 am
Passerby – Do you even know who I am referring to in my stories ? I really doubt so if you said that my stories are not facts … Do u even know who is Lim Goh Tong and Tony Fernandez ? … they are real … Please read up more and broaden up your horizon because saying that I actually cooked up some stories on my own …
Intheknow – I am just so sorry that you think you can’t be 1 in a billion … that’s why you belong to the 95% of people … I don’t even want to get there ….
Reply
Mr B Reply:
May 31st, 2010 at 7:35 pm
haha, a year has passed.
and Genneva is still growing.
If you were smarter, you would be richer by 24%.
Reply
Wow, I saw a post earlier attacking singaporeans and saying that they are kiasi and poor. I cannot help but laugh at the stupidity of it all. What I see here is a gang of foreign sharks and barracudas trying to feast on the Singapore pool precisely this can be a feeding frenzy ground because Singaporeans are rich enough. Yet, one of the disappointed minows decided to snap at Singaporeans because he is simply too small and slow to snap at any. I see the valiant efforts of some who warned of the scheme, then they are ridiculed and compared to riding a tricycle. LoL, be careful when you ride on a supercharged motorbike, especially on the Malaysian highway! You may not be around to tell the tricycle story when you finally crash. More Madoff MADeOFF with your money anyone? Only time will tell, but Singaporeans, be warned, don’t run to TKL when your Singapore dream falls apart, like the recent minibond highnote saga. What makes you think you can trust a Malaysian company more than DBS, Hong Leong Finance and the U.S. banks? Simple, isn’t it?
Reply
There are three kinds of people in the world. The first kind are those who make things happen. Second are those who wait for things to happen and the last are those who do not know what is happening, or happened even after it has happened. Those who make things happen, happen to include people like Madoff, Stanley, Dominic of wine saga fame, Clemen of Options trading fame and many others, including people who make people’s lives better like Mother Theresa, Albert Einstein, LKY etc. Whatever happens just make sure you are not the third group.
And btw Qiyo, if you want to learn how to invest, what makes you think that really successful investors will want to share their knowledge with you when there are many self-professed gurus who will charge you a fee to learn, namely people like Clemen, Adam etc?
Anyone can reveal how many CFPs were involved in the Lehman Collapse? Maybe Qiyo can consult her team of RMs since she has half a million dollar to invest? Passerby as the name suggests is just passing by so why should he or she teach Qiyo how to invest her half million? I don’t have half a million to invest, in fact, if I have half a million I would not want to invest since I am still scratching my head as to why Billionaires like Oei HL would still want to get so much heartache from his investments with his team of high profile RMs when he can be enjoying his life in the epitome of luxury or any other lifestyle he wishes to enjoy. I do not have a CFP or CPA or whatever title but what I did was to have early retirement so I can live my life the way I want it, without a need to fret over heartwrenching things like failed investments which I forsee will continue to rise with the culture we are immersing into now.
Intelligent people are considered intelligent because they are able to observe a pattern and make predictions. Crooks like Madoff and Dominic are also intelligent because they are able to observe the patterns of the population so they fine tune their tactics accordingly. Remember the exclusive clubs, by invitation only, not any Tom, Dick or Harry can participate etc? Steady, continuous and above average yields etc? Up, Up and Up etc? Why, because they are so intelligent that they know and predicted the behaviour of lesser mortals and feed those desires and create desires when they are non-existent by clever advertising and ploys leading to scams and frauds. Do not learn by experience as it may be painful, learn through knowledge which comes from observations, other people’s experiences and noting patterns of behaviours and traits. Simple, isn’t it?
Reply
Hey Friend,
I agree with you that great people do not work alone. I have been looking for someone with the same mindset to look up to … someone who can give me good advice …. so its really great to have met you here … Will email you soon … Thanks
P/S: I am a true Malaysian
Reply
Hi All,
No need to argue so much.
I have sent 2 separate emails to Malaysian and Singaporean financial regulators.
http://www.sc.com.my/
http://www.mas.gov.sg/
EMAIL TO MALAYSIAN SECURITIES COMMISSION
Dear Malaysia Securities Commission,
I would like to request for an investigation to be conducted on a Malaysian incorporated company – Genneva Sdn Bhd.
Their website can be located at http://www.genneva.com.sg/Home.html.
Their registered office is at:
36th Floor, Menara Maxis
Kuala Lumpur City Centre
50088 Kuala Lumpur
Malaysia
Tel: +603 2615 0188
Fax:+603 2615 008
Their website advertises a guaranteed scheme for gold investors which I find highly unsustainable. I suspect this company to be operating a Ponzi scheme.
Could you please perform an urgent query and investigation into this company and advise your findings? If this company indeed has some problems, please add this company to your Watchlist.
Many thanks,
-censored-
EMAIL TO MONETARY AUTHORITY OF SINGAPORE
Dear Monetary Authority of Singapore,
I would like to request for an investigation to be conducted on a Singapore incorporated company – Genneva Pte Ltd. Their company registration number is 200801594N.
Their website can be located at http://www.genneva.com.sg/Home.html.
Their registered office is at:
400 Orchard Road
#05-27
Orchard Towers
Singapore 238875
Tel: +65 6836 2833
Fax: +65 6836 5636
Email: admin@genneva.com.sg
Their website advertises a guaranteed scheme for gold investors which I find highly unsustainable. I suspect this company to be operating a Ponzi scheme.
Could you please perform an urgent query and investigation into this company and advise your findings? If this company indeed has some problems, please add this company to your Watchlist.
Many thanks,
-censored-
Reply
Intheknow Reply:
July 9th, 2009 at 9:02 pm
I will keep everyone posted of any replies I get from the regulators.
In the meantime, please, SINGAPOREANS, be smart and stay safe.
Reply
passive incomer Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
Great Initiative and thanks for doing this. Please keep all of us “in the know”. I’ve been reading this fascinating thread and I must say I enjoy every word of it.
Come on “Singaporeans” and “Malaysians”, you can do better than that. Making (or losing) money goes beyond your national boundary (c’mon admit it).
Reply
Jaichandra Reply:
July 12th, 2009 at 11:53 pm
Please let me know when you receive a reply from MAS. Thank you.
Reply
Mr B Reply:
May 31st, 2010 at 7:40 pm
Lol. That was a YEAR ago.
So what happened, detective?
Did the company collapse? people crying with losses?
Or are they like me, still making money while you shout chicken little?
I am curious, WHAT did the government do??? We couldn’t have paid all those taxes for nothing, right?
Didn’t they close the company down for having the guts to offer 2% to their customers?! How dare they! It’s against logic!!!
Reply
The two emails I sent to malaysia securities commission and monetary authority of singapore which I copied and pasted to this forum is pending moderation (I think post is too long).
Once lioninvestor vets my post, u guys can see the contents of my emails.
Reply
lioninvestor Reply:
July 10th, 2009 at 12:59 am
Nice work, Intheknow.
The irony of it is that if the scheme gets shut down, investors will blame you for being the cause of it.
Reply
If it is only a matter of time until this scheme gets shut down, it might as well be now. Before more people get sucked into this scheme.
Reply
That’s the way to go “Intheknow” … its better to get some actual facts and information rather than bringing out all sort of assumptions and judgement by our own …
Anyway, I am not sure in Singapore but I have a friend working in the Security Commission in Malaysia and according to him … its perfectly legal for a company to trade in gold .. they don’t really need a special license or approval …
They actually treat Genneva just like any other gold smith … If you buy your gold anywhere else, I am sure you will get more than 2.5% discount anyway … the only difference is that Genneva guarantees the buy back value ..
Anyway, just to share. I might be wrong … its still better to get some clarification in black and white ….
Reply
wah this blog turns up on google first page right below genneva’s own website. Anyway awaiting the reply from MAS. Just thinking if they’ll “play taiji” or not. better be a confirmed YES or NO reply, not those “gray” answers not addressing the question
Reply
Even Madoff in his heyday will not want to share with you because you only have half a million. I am still puzzled why you expect Passerby to share with you.
Reply
STAR NEWSPAPER
Get-rich-quick schemes cause RM845m losses
THEY use scantily-clad girls to “persuade” potential investors to make the right “investments”.
Some offer you all the food you can eat so that you will bring in even more customers to their “special outlets”.
And then there are the gold bars and gold coins and promises of huge returns on foreign exchange.
In this Starprobe report, we reveal how Malaysians are being lured into investment schemes that appear on the surface to be lucrative only to find out later that they have been cheated of their life savings.
The number of scams is on the rise, up nearly 27%, according to the authorities.
The Federal Commercial Crimes Division says 17,311 case files were opened last year compared to the year before with financial losses estimated at RM845mil. And despite the economic downturn, this trend is not showing any sign of abating.
Check out our special report as we go undercover at some of these “hotspots”. We also talk to the authorities, lawyers, concerned members of the public as well as those who have been involved in such businesses to get a clearer picture.
It Is True…??
Reply
STAR NEWSPAPER
A golden investment that sounds too good to be true
WHEN times are volatile and the economic cycle erratic, investors often turn to gold as a safe investment.
However, unscrupulous companies have now come up with very attractive ways to market gold in the form of coins or bars.
What makes this type of investment attractive or seem safe is not just the returns but the fact that investors are holding on to gold.
Agents for this type of investment would point out that if or should the company go belly-up, the investors would still have their gold coins or bars in hand.
According to a source familiar with such schemes, the gold that was offered to investors was usually lower in value than claimed. He said most goldsmiths would not buy this gold as the purity of the metal was in question.
He added that this was akin to Ponzi schemes as the earlier investors would have a better deal than the ones who come in later.
Starprobe was alerted to a “gold investment scheme” operated by Genneva Sdn Bhd, which was offering investors 50gm gold coins at RM6,500.
A member of the public said the company would pay investors 2.5% of the price of the gold coin and guarantee to buy back the coin at market value after a minimum holding time of one month.
“Initially investors were paid the 2.5% investment on a monthly basis but now it’s every three months because the company claimed the amount of paperwork generated was a hassle,” she said.
“I was approached by one of their agents who claimed to have sold 3kg worth of coins for RM300,000. This was ‘authenticated’ by various photocopied documents,” she added.
Additionally, the company said the coins could be authenticated by Bank Rakyat and that investors could even pawn the coins to the bank at 65% of the value of the coin.
She also said an agent of the company had sent out an SMS with the message that the company was safe in the wake of the Bank Negara investigation into Bestino Group Bhd, a company dealing in gold bars that was being probed for illegal deposit-taking and issuance of redeemable preference shares.
“A check with the central bank’s website did not reveal any information relating to the company,” she said.
A Bank Negara official however told Starprobe that Genneva was not licensed. He could not comment further as no complaint had been lodged against the company.
Bank Rakyat, when contacted, said it was not aware of the scheme.
“We’ve posted notices at all our branches and Ar-Rahnu X’Change that the bank is not involved,” said a Bank Rakyat official.
When contacted, a Genneva official questioned our reporter’s credentials. The official also considered the complaints as not legitimate because they did not come from their clients.
“You’re fishing in very deep waters,” he said before hanging up.
Reply
lioninvestor Reply:
July 13th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
Hi Benny,
Thanks for posting this.
Reply
People be ALERT … !! I think this forum is really working because Genneva actually came up in the STAR newspaper today … (13/7/2009) …
Please check out the STAR page 10 … a short article about Genneva … It says that Genneva is not licensed with Bank Negara … but I don’t know what that means because according to the Genneva’s agent, they don’t need a license in gold trading only for investments …
Anyway, it is good that Genneva is in the light now as lots of investigation will be carried out … Lets wait and see what happens … At least we will have peace of mind …
Reply
lioninvestor Reply:
July 13th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
Hi Plane89,
Yes, someone posted the contents of the article already.
Reply
sunshine Reply:
July 13th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
More information about the gold rush :-
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2009/7/13/starprobe/4245154&sec=starprobe
Reply
Anyone here can find out the true..??
Reply
As the government around world continue in their quest to pump in trillions of dollars into the economy (money backed by debt disguist as bonds), and continue to spend deficit-ly. What is certain is increase in inflation as our government continue to increase the money supply in the economy. When inflation increase, the price of commodities will increase. Commodities are like gold, silver, oil, nasi lemak, roti canai and etc. Of course there are bumps and spikes in commodity prices each day, but if you look at the long term trend is steadily increase, while the value of money is steadily decreasing. This is not rocket science.
Historically, price of gold has increase steadily since President Nixon took the world of the gold standards in 1971, gold has increased from approximately USD35 to about USD 910++ today. And if you understand how our economy works, so long our government continue to print more money and spend money they do not own, prices of commodities will guarantee to increase.
This is one of the reasons why gold investment is more attractive than FD and it is getting more attractive in the current economy downturn. You can invest in gold by purchasing the physical gold or you can buy some kind of gold trust (public gold). Either way, you are buying gold, hold it, wait for the market to go up, sell and gain profit. This is call capital gain profit.
What I see about Genneva is that, besides offering capital gain profit, the company provides for monthly cashflow profit (2% or 2.5% rebate). I don’t care if the Genneva makes money or lose money, I will get cashflow profit. If Genneva’s loses money and go burst, I will then have capital gain profit. My caveat to you is that, you have to hold the physical gold, do not let Genneva keep your gold. No one knows what will happen to Genneva tomorrow. Even if SC or Bank Negara closes down Genneva the next minutes, what can I say, I will just wait for capital gain profit.
For those who have been investing in gold, you will see immediately benefits. For those who has not been investing in gold or has not been investing at all, you got a lot of homework to do. When come to investing it is all about the numbers. Don’t be emotional, greedy and disregard any opportunity, but study it deeper and see how you can benefit from it?
I come to realize that in this world, even if you are giving out free money, people will still ask, “What is the catch?” So no point arguing, we are both right basing on where we are coming from. Each one of us has different taste and mindset when comes to money.
For those more conservative groups of people, I advise you to invest in FD and see how your government robs it from you overtime.
Reply
I called up Genneva today. According to their staff, the CEO will go directly to Bank Negara by today and will sue the newspaper as well.
I think this will benefit us either way … Just see what happens in these few days in the newspaper and then we can make our judgement based on this …
I think one of the reason this issue has been brought up in the local newspaper is because of this forum … Lets wait and see what happens from now on ….
Reply
Excerpt from the star, Malaysia “According to a source familiar with such schemes, the gold that was offered to investors was usually lower in value than claimed. He said most goldsmiths would not buy this gold as the purity of the metal was in question.”
Let me rephrase what the Star or his source trying to say, “I bought the gold at retail price but I got less than 100% of gold purity. The goldsmith is not interested to buy the gold because the purity is not 999″.
Which company does the Star refer too? Is it Genneva? Did they got their facts correct?
Was there any police report made against the company after 2.5 years in operation stated that the gold purity is less than 999?
Did the source know that through out 2.5 years many clients send their gold to banks, goldsmith to check the purity? Was there any complaint from the client as the gold coin is actually manufacture for Genneva?
Can I see the gold that the source said the purity of the metal was in question?
Or did the source referring to Genneva or other company selling gold at the premium price, which is higher than banks therefore providing lower “value”? If yes, than all the goldsmiths from the Goldsmith Association should be included in the picture as Genneva retail price is the same as other goldsmith retail price.
Reply
I totaly agree with Intheknow that someone should really get their gold tested by a reliable party. Spare cash or not, this is only a prudent step to protect one’s investment. I note that a lot of the posts seem to come from parties who have vested interest in the company. Either that or very naive investors who should take heed of good advices given. Intheknow please keep us updated on the developments of your report to Malaysia’s SEC and Singapore’s MAS. Personally I doubt you will get any reply simply because nobody has actually got “burned” yet.
Reply
I have got a reply from Malaysia’s SEC. Still work in progress but I think the STAR article already tells us all who is right and who is wrong.
TRUTH WILL PREVAIL, not pressure or shaming tactics.
“Thank you for your query. We are currently working with Bank Negara on this issue and will advise you when our investigation has an outcome.
You are advised to exercise caution and due diligence before investing in any scheme. Where an investment scheme or service offered involves securities of any kind or dealing in securities or investment advice or fund management related to securities, you are advised to only deal with Companies or Persons licensed and authorized by the SC. The list of Companies and individuals licensed by the SC to carry out investment activities can be found on the SC website at http://www.sc.com.my by clicking Licensed Intermediaries.”
Reply
one more article:
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2009/7/13/starprobe/4157531&sec=starprobe
I find it really amazing with modern communications, how come there are still people who will fall prey to such schemes.
The police, internet, newspapers, television, and friends should have made these sort of schemes well known!
Reply
Why isn’t major funds like Temasek or EPF or even large companies consider putting its money with Genneva. After all it’s guaranteed and safe, isn’t it?
Also, a return of 24% per annum would place Genneva as one of the best investments in the world! So why is it operating from a shop lot instead of a gleaming high storey building? I mean people should be flocking to this company!
Reply
Once upon a time, there was a bank that paid very reasonable returns to its clients. Not the 0.1% p.a interest rate that we are all very familiar about. But over 20% per year. None of its clients complained.
Unfortunately the ones that did complained are the clients of many other companies and banks. And their complaints were very loud and very painful. “It can’t be legit. It is impossible to pay out such rates”. “Also, it is just not right to do that. No other banks are giving out such rates”. “They must be running a ponzi scheme”. On and on, they wailed so as to prove to each other their immense wisdom.
Not contented to strut about among themselves, in short steps they lodged a complaint to the highest authorities. Is the complaint fair and true? Who knows because it really may not matter after all.
Soon the news was out. There was a run on this same very reasonable bank that was paying excellent returns to its clients. Queues formed overnight. After all, which sane client would want to be caught with his pants down when all ‘evil’ banks must fail?
Strong as any bank might have been, it simply cannot withstand the loss of its life-blood when most, if not all, of its clients took out their money.
Smug were all the complainers. They were so wise to predict that the ‘good’ bank is up to no good. It is definitely evil. “Such an evil bank must be shut down to protect the innocents!”, they shouted at the top of their voices.
Never again would any other bank dare to treat customers fairly again.
I am that poor customer that had hopes for better days ahead. But now, I had my pants pulled down by some very smug people.
Thankfully I am in slightly better shape than any other evil bank’s customers.
Through its age-old wisdom the ‘good’ bank, before it kicked the proverbial bucket, gave me some 999.9 certified Pamp gold bars in exchange for my money. And now they are residing in my safe-box. So all is not lost!
Thank you for complaining to the authorities.
You must be feeling real good about yourselves and thank you for listening to my story.
Artist Disclaimer: ‘All resemblences are purely co-incidental and purely for the telling of my story………(bla bla bla)”.
Reply
lioninvestor Reply:
July 14th, 2009 at 10:19 pm
Any bank that borrows money at 24% p.a. is dead in the long run if they can’t generate net returns more than what they are paying.
Reply
DeadBecauseOfRumours Reply:
July 14th, 2009 at 10:54 pm
Dear lioninvestor, Mr Keynes said it well, “In the long run, we are all dead!”.
Btw are you a banker? How do you know that they cannot generate more thank 24% p.a.?
Reply
lioninvestor Reply:
July 14th, 2009 at 11:19 pm
Hi DeadBecauseofRumours,
I am saying “Any” bank.
As to whether Genneva can do that or not, it’s up to you to decide.
If I am given $1000 and use $800 to buy something, I have only $200 left to generate 24% on $1000.
Which means more than 100% returns on the $200 in 1 year.
Reply
DeadBecauseOfRumours Reply:
July 15th, 2009 at 12:06 am
Dear lioninvestor, have you heard of OPM?
Banks do it all the time. Suppose we deposit, say, $1000 into any bank. By law banks are needed to keep a very small percentage as reserve. This averaged less than 5%. In other words, the banking system lend out more than $20,000 in loans from our initial $1000 deposits.
These loans will then earn for the banks 5%, 10%, 20% or even 36% p.a depending on the types of loans. If we assume the loan average is only 5% p.a. Then the entire banking system is making 5% X $20,000 = $1000 or 100% gross returns on our initial $1000 dollars.
In return the bank pays me 1% p.a. for my money.
Therefore banks can definitely generate more than 24% pa and can afford to pay us depositors more than the current ridiculous rates.
As for Genneva? I don’t know their trade secret for a fact. Any one willing to share their secret?
Reply
lioninvestor Reply:
July 15th, 2009 at 5:47 am
Genneva is not licensed as a bank and thus unable to do like what you mentioned.
Reply
AC Reply:
July 15th, 2009 at 1:44 am
Lioninvestor,
Let me correct the statement, it is not $200 left to generate 24%, but 2% as the contract term is only one month in Singapore.
Now, sidetrack a bit. There are quite a lot of assumption that is not base on facts and make a conclusion that it is a “scam”. It is human nature as we tend to make a conclusion after hearing from news, forums, etc. It is so easy to judge a company / person without getting to know them personally. The news that we hear can give us check and balance provided we get the facts correctly. How do we know the facts? It’s by hearing from the horses mouth, and in my opinion, Genneva management. From there, you can draw your own conclusion.
Look at the classic example of the star newspaper article on Genneva. It is laughable as it has more than 8 misleading, inaccurate and fabrication report that is not base on facts. The reporter did not do his research well and got shot on it’s own foot.
An example, the statement on “A Bank Negara official however told Starprobe that Genneva was not licensed” is misleading the readers as Genneva DOES NOT need a license from Bank Negara to operate as a goldsmith.
Why is everyone harping that the company need the approval from Bank Negara? This is because the public perception is Genneva is a gold investment scheme (again from The Star) when the company is a goldsmith like any other jewelers in Singapore / Malaysia that offer a discount just like any other retails. Do I tell a nasi lemak stall that you need a license from Bank Negara / MAS to sell?
Investment scheme is for companies like banks who offer investment structure product, fix deposit, unit trusts, shares etc and in return get dividend / interest. Such scheme surely need a license from MAS/BN/SC to regulate and monitor.
Another question is bank only gives low interest, therefore any company offer more than the banks is akin to a “scam”. Now, is it because the bank cannot offer better interest or simply because they comply to regulatory set by BN/MAS?
Reply
lioninvestor Reply:
July 15th, 2009 at 5:48 am
Hi AC,
I am talking about on an annual basis.
It has to earn $240 on the $200 it gets per year just to break even. This does not even take into account all its running costs like commission to agents, etc.
Reply
AC Reply:
July 16th, 2009 at 1:19 am
Hi again,
Yes, I understand your point. Allow me to clarify
We know that the company offer 2% for a month period. At the end of the contract, there is a buy back guarantee (BBG) at original purchase price.
Since it is 1 month contract, then the margin / profit is calculated on 1 month. The reason is, if the client decides to continue on the 2nd month, he will buy at new price that will base on new margin. This the reason why it is calculated as per month basis.
If the company sell the gold for a one time deal and give a small discount, than by using the wholesale & retail price mechanism alone, the company can still earn profit.
But if the company sell gold, give 2% discount and offer a BBG, than wholesale & retail price mechanism alone is not enough.
You need other mechanism like factory / mining price, leverage, terms with supplier, and few other mechanism in order to provide 100% BBG to client.
This is where public thought it is a scam. How could a company give BBG & 24% discount by using just retail & wholesale price.
typical MLM worker ants coming out of the woodwork crying foul.
Step 1 – Shame your nay sayers
Step 2 – Blame your nay sayers
Reply
i would love to see your face change when you go to the goldsmith shop and the owner says… sorry we don’t buy aluminum that’s gold plated.
well, that’s provided you actually are an investor and not just the worker ant.
Reply
DeadBecauseOfRumours Reply:
July 14th, 2009 at 10:50 pm
InTheKnow is wrong. The gold bars given to me in Singapore are issued by http://www.pamp.com
Please do your research and learn to say sorry.
Reply
Voice of Reason – I am not sure about Temasek. But I sure know company as big as HSBC can be smart enought to invest 1b dollars with Madoff. So don’t make a mistake that big companies investing strategies are always right. Inside such corporations are just another high paying employee “trying” to do the right thing.
Intheknow – Aluminium will weight much less than Gold as it’s density is lower. Cooper is closer. FYI, the gold is real. A pawn shop in PJ will take it at about RM10k/100g. Remember it is about 20% below market. Your total risk is 20%. If not wait till Gold price increase.
This would be my last post, as I do not believe in provoking an arguement in which there is absolutely no reason for it. But I suggest that before anyone post anymore comments, please do some research before saying it, else you look really stupid.
Reply
joekoo Reply:
July 14th, 2009 at 10:12 am
which pawn shop in PJ ? Could you tell ?
Hard to say at the moment , what’s the main reason behind this reporting ? From the STAR paper , it never mentions about how this GOLD TRADING currently operating by a few companies , but only targetting GENNEVA’s name (is appeared) , what about the rest ?
due to competition ? or GENNEVA try to make use of the media , free ads ? not so cheap to be in the headline of the paper ?
what’s the motif behind it ?
Reply
Voice of Reason Reply:
July 14th, 2009 at 11:46 am
Nice of you using Madoff as an example of investing in a big company. We all know what happened!
Also if the Genneva website inspires confidence in people to part with their money, as there are still portions under construction, then I guess the saying “There is a sucker born everyday” might be true.
There is an old proverb “If it sounds too good to be be true…it probably is”
Reply
i have done my research before i post this.
I AM 100% SURE schemes that are too good to be true will FAIL. Just a matter of time until it does.
Madoff took 30 years to collapse, but ultimately it did because it was a scheme too good to be true.
Just don’t be the sucker holding on to the bag when it blows up.
Reply
If Genneva stores the gold for its clients, isn’t that akin to deposit taking activity? And if that is considered deposit taking, and since all deposit-taking activity in Malaysia has to be regulated by Bank Negara for which Genneva does not have a licence to do, then isn’t it conducting an illegal activity?
Reply
DeadBecauseOfRumours Reply:
July 14th, 2009 at 11:12 pm
FYI, in Singapore Genneva gave me physical gold bars. These gold bars are also sold in Singapore goldsmith shops at around the same price charged by Genneva (btw gold price is not standardized across the goldsmith shops in Singapore).
Reply
let’s hope STAR continues to report the developments for Genneva Gold.
Reply
Hi, I am a private gold futures trader trading on COMEX. I am also keeping up a gold investor forum on GoldClubAsia.com
We had some club meet ups last year in SG and there was once a Genneva agent there as well. He tried to get me to invest in their scheme too.
My impression from the beginning was that this is PROBABLY a ponzi. On my website last year I have warned people that there will be more and more ponzis coming out of woodwork due to the generational bull market we are in.
The best way to invest in gold is to buy real gold bullion at the closest possible to spot price. This scheme offered by Genneva is nothing more than a ponzi using gold bullion as frontage.
For those who are not familiar with global gold bullion trading: it is probably one of the lowest margin business you can run. If you do not have volume, you will not make money.
This scheme has never been about gold, but more about the “premium” they are asking you to pay above the usual gold bullion price. Like all other ponzis, they take money upfront, then pay you your own money back over time. Meanwhile, trying to recruit more “customers”.
Please study ponzis on wiki, even the oldest scheme, was based on some kind of magical way to make profit off international postage stamps.
It is never about the gold you are buying, it is after the “premium” you are paying.
I expect fully that any Genneva agents will be attacking me immediately regarding this post. Please be aware that I am not online often, it might take time to respond to your posts.
24% per year return on gold riskfree is IMPOSSIBLE to achieve. PERIOD.
When it comes to gold bullion, cut any middlemen. Go buy your coins from a mint or bank counter and stash away those coins.
Reply
Mr B Reply:
May 31st, 2010 at 8:06 pm
LOL.
The Singapore mint is selling gold coins at $135 for 1.24gms of gold!
And you are telling me that buying gold from Genneva at $66.50/gram (with a 2% every month) is risky.
WOW.
Singapore mint: 999.9 Singapore minted gold coin with a cat printed on it. Nothing more.
$135 for 1.24 grams.
Genneva Singapore: 999.9 Gold (Credit Suisse/UOB or PAMP Suisse certified gold – easily traded for cash)
$66.50 for 1 gram.
$82.46 for 1.24 gram.
And here you are sir, offering advice to all that we should CUT out all middlemen and buy gold from a mint?!!!
Aren’t you the EXPERT over here. LOL!!!
Joke of the day, really.
More than 50% of the people here don’t even know what they are talking about.
This forum is FULL of people talking nonsense.
I’m outta here.
Reply
One more thing: any ponzi schemes can be easily detected by replacing their main product with another product and yet still functional.
example: I start a new company called “global rice trading”
I am selling highest grade rice for 20% above market value to you.
You will receive 2% per month from me later.
Price of rice does move, so you can choose to keep/eat the rice or sell the rice at a profit on open market or sell back to me later at guaranteed price.
You get to keep the rice. If I go bust, you just lose the “premium” of 20%. No big deal.
If anyone wants to invest in my new “venture”, just leave a message.
Reply
DeadBecauseOfRumours Reply:
July 14th, 2009 at 11:17 pm
Dear GoldClubAsia, I am game. I don’t mind losing a few thousand of my hard-earn money to sue you in Singapore.
Reply
bigmind Reply:
July 15th, 2009 at 7:38 am
hahaha..goldclubasia, after all talk, you are selling yr venture
Reply
Got a response from Bank Negara:
“With reference to your email dated 13 Jul 2009 on the above.
If the investment scheme clearly offers an investment opportunity by collecting deposits from the public and investors are promised investment returns within a certain period of time, whereby the original investment will be refunded, it maybe contravene Section 25(1) Banking And Financial Institutions Act (BAFIA). This investment activity is against the law and you are investing at your own risk. Please invest only with licensed financial institutions only.
An easy way to identify and verify whether or not a company is licensed by Bank Negara Malaysia, you can refer to the licensed institutions list on our website by following this URL
http://www.bnm.gov.my/index.php?ch=17&pg=54&ac=57
If the company is NOT LISTED on our list on the website, it simply means that the company is NOT LICENSED NOR APPROVED by Bank Negara Malaysia to offer any financial services or products.
You may also cross check with Securities Commission’s (SC) licensed/alert lists on their website :
1. http://www.sc.com.my/eng/html/licensing/licenseMain.html
2. http://www.sc.com.my/eng/html/licensing/investors/Alert_list.html
3. http://www.sc.com.my/eng/html/licensing/investors/IApg_other.html
Nevertheless, your e-mail has been forwarded to our Unit Penyiasatan Khas (UPK). If you have more information pertaining to this company or other illegal deposit taking activities or illegal foreign currency dealings or are a victim of such activities or scams you can send details of such information or complaint together with the documents to Bank Negara Malaysia as follows:
Unit Penyiasatan Khas
Bank Negara Malaysia”
Reply
oops.. below part got cut off:
“Jalan Dato’ Onn
50480 Kuala Lumpur
Fax: 03-26987467
UPK can also be contacted at the following telephone numbers:
Tel.: 03-26985708 / 03-26985724 / 03-26985776 / 03-26985785
Please be guided accordingly.
BNMTELELINK
Bank Negara Malaysia
No Tel : 1-300-88-5465
No Faks : 03-21741515
Email : bnmtelelink@bnm.gov.my“
Reply
Normally, investors take some risk and try to make a living or maybe some fortune.(Sometime get burned, so what?)
On the other hand there seems to be certain people who don’t invest anything but has plenty of time spreading negative comments on anything they come across.
Due to what they say, they will make efforts to see companies closed and judge these so call schemes(opportunities) as illegal or ‘Ponzi/Scam’).
I wonder what they gain by reporting to authorities about all these opportunities.
Some Companies collapsed not due to their legality but to these so called ‘complaints’ form outsiders who actually wish (or hope) to see investors lose all their monies.
Well, in conclusion I would like to say that if those without any constructive comments, please leave us investors alone. Burn or no burn is our money, not yours.
Go find yourself an opposition party and voice all your unhappiness to whoever is ruling, maybe you can do a better job there, I think.
Good Luck.
Reply
DeadBecauseOfRumours Reply:
July 14th, 2009 at 10:58 pm
Hi Andrew, are you an investor with Genneva? Me too. Let’s hope for the best. Cheers.
Reply
Honda Reply:
February 12th, 2010 at 3:26 am
Usually those who spread fire here are the unit trusts agents, land banking agents and all other bank investments product sales guys, they do not wish the investors to get burnt but they want the companies to get burnt, therefore they can eliminate competitions and force public back to their conventional and rather slow schemes.
Reply
It is really interesting the various nicks Genneva gold agents use to get their similar points across. I think by now, anyone with half a brain will know what Genneva Gold really is now.
With regards to my point on the gold bar being ‘fake’, I will apologise since the explanation by goldclubasia has convinced me that it is possible for a ponzi scheme to operate using genuine underlyings, albeit at inflated priced. My stance remains unchanged. The scheme operated by Genneva Gold is unsustainable.
Exposing these schemes is the best way to prevent more investors from being conned, and hopefully prevent existing investors from ploughing in more.
Reply
Many thanks to GoldClubAsia for putting up that lovely post. It simply answer all the big questions regarding gold investment and sustainability of such schemes from Genneva.
After reading all the exciting exchange on this topic, I could not help but to share with everyone my own experience in such schemes similar to Genneva.
In 2007, I was “conned” by my friend to set a business similar to Genneva model. I have paid $300K for this expensive lesson but have only evolved to be much better investor now. I shall share from two points of view ie from the company (business) and the investor.
First from the company’s point of view, if the company is run solely on such model, ie selling gold at retail price and refund money back to investor after x number of months with some rebates in between, the company will NEVER be sustainable. Look carefully at this model, it is simply a 100% “creditor” model where assets < liability. In financial terms, the company has no real revenue or cash flow to sustain therefore the 20% premium paid by investor B will be used to pay the refund for the previous investor A. In this aspect, the scheme will be similar to a ponzi arrangement. That’s how I have lost my money and my friend’s company closed down in 7 months.
The model only can work slightly longer if the loan raised by investors is used to finance the working of other business. For eg, in my friend’s case, I was promised that the money raised can be used for a few things such as
a. wholesaling in gold (where margin is very low so you need big volume)
b. retail jewellery (where margin is typically more than 20%)
c. conversion of old gold into 916 or 999 gold ( margin is usually about 20%)
If Genneva ensures good business in the above, then the company will be sustainable. The question is that since it is pte ltd, they will not usually reveal their business operations. Also, such companies are likely to use the money raised to invest into other speculative business which can deliver more than 24% pa, then the model will be sustainable. So this is the company risk that investors have to take.
Let’s talk from the investor’s point of view:
The risk to the investor is actually not 20%. Remember you can roll your gold every 3 months. But you need to surrender the gold for the first contract and then get the gold for the second contract. Assuming their practice of T+1, you run risk for losing all your capital for 4 days out of a year. This is because they take your gold first without paying capital on the spot. If the company is unscrupulous, they can default on payment with you having no collateral on your hand! So the risk of 20% as written in many of the posts above only assume that if the company has the integrity not to take your gold when they are closing down.
In conclusion, always remember high returns = high risk. If you are willing to take part in such schemes, make sure you are FIFO (first-in-first-out). The nightmare comes when you are last out.
I hope my sharing can help you make a informed decision.
cheers
wholesaler
Reply
let me just highlight some statistics of real banks for the sake of all.
1. Genuine banks usually maintain a Tier 1 Capital Adequacy Ratio (”CAR”) of about 10% and Total CAR of 14%. They are required by Singapore law to maintain 6% Tier 1 and 10% Total CAR.
2. The Return on Assets (how much net income earned for each dollar of asset owned) is at best 2%, not the 10s of % mentioned by someone above. So for every dollar of asset each bank holds, they earn like 2 cents ONLY. Suddenly, Genneva seems so wonderful!
3. The Return on Equity (how much net income earned for each dollar of shareholder funds) is about 13% in a good year! This means the shareholders that subject themselves to RISK of the share price moving up and down ‘earn’ about 13 cents for every $1 share price. They do not get paid the 13 cents dividend in full though. Some get retained in the company. Suddenly, Genneva seems so wonderful. NO RISK and the investor earns 24% with no price fluctuations!
Reply
DeadBecauseOfRumours Reply:
July 15th, 2009 at 10:41 pm
Ahem ………… you are saying that banks are earning less than 2% ROA (now that’s a good one).
And you really do believed that nonsense data, don’t you, Mr. InTheKnow?
Any bankers waiting on the side-line to tell your end of the story how come you are earning less than long term government bonds?
For current government bond rates see http://www.fundsupermart.com/main/sgs/SGShome.tpl
If the nonsense data is true then all the banks need to do to generate more money is to simply to buy long term government bonds instead of lending out housing loans, car loans, renovation loans, credit card loans, bridging loans and all other administratively and operationally intensive work only to earn less than long term government bonds.
No doubt you believe that banks are altrustic too?
Again, please do your research and learn to say sorry.
Reply
to the Genneva agents, i post another simple question.
why would Genneva be afraid of government/regulatory scrutiny if their business model is indeed as simple and profitable as you mentioned? No risk right? Nothing illegal right?
if the regulators inspect and pass this company, WOW, you will get tons more of investors. I PERSONALLY WILL BORROW AS MUCH AS I CAN FROM MY BANKS TO INVEST.
Reply
bigmind Reply:
July 15th, 2009 at 7:50 am
1. Don’t invest what you don’t have (ie. Loan). Greed will run you into trouble.
2. Do not take one investment instrument and compare with the other. Each instrument has their own risk profile and ROI. In some instances, if done properly, biz can give 1000% ROI. Property can easily achive 30-50%. At times both can give you “Infinite” ROI. So cannot compare an Apple with an Orange lar!
3. Not all company/investment must be regulated. I guess Genneva need not be regulated as it could be running with a goldsmith license and that gives 2.5% “rebate” to customers overtime.
4. Keep posting the investigation report of Genneva. It would be good to know.
Reply
Well, well, well, Qiyo, you seem to have an ego unmatching your level of intelligence. In your ealier reply to me, you harp on wanting to be on TOP. I don’t mind you being on top of me since I am enjoying the ride and you are doing all the work. LoL. I will have the money if I am faced with a profit. I believe in physical Gold too, and I own only the GAN, GMLs etc which is guaranteed and legal tender by their respective governments. I source them from all over the world for the best deals and they all come with receipts from reputable banks. This way, I don’t need to go to any pawnshop to verify.
I think you are suffering from cognitive dissonance now. Well, if you are so confident of your “investment” then buy more. LOL. Don’t stop. As for the other forummers who advised against it, it clearly showed their wisdom and decisiveness.
By the way, half a million more of the right brain cells is more valuable than half a million dollars. It is actually a no brainer to be able to differentiate a profit making venture and a loss making one. If you still don’t get it, then having a hundred million dollars to “invest” will just mean losing it, sooner or later. A simple way for the average investor to differentiate who is telling the truth is simply to ask yourself the following question.
Why is Qiyo or whoever saying this?
Ans: Because she stands to gain more money if you follow her advice.
Why is Passerby or Singaporean saying this?
Ans: Because they don’t want you to get conned.
Once you know the motives and intentions then it is easy to seek the truth.
In this era of conmanship, one has to be careful. Let me end with this real story involving a friend. All names and incidences are true.
Danny was an English Teacher and was a good friend of mine. I once helped him earned $16,000 in three months by referring him to teach English on an intensive basis for Tech Semiconductor’s China workers. When he collected the money, he was very happy and told me that he is going to invest it with a guy called Lawrence from some “Success” company, the name of which I forgot. I asked him to be careful but he told me he will be getting 10% interest every month and still guaranteed of his principal sum. I told him of all the risks but he insisted. I then asked him why this Lawrence would need to borrow money from him and not from the bank if the business is legitimate. I asked him to ask himself the simple question why Lawrence did not get a bank loan. If no banks dare to lend him, what makes him dare to? The usual if you have the money but don’t invest and lose the opportunity crops up. I was sad to this day that a good friend did not heed my advice.
And Qiyo, you are welcome to stay on top as long as you are the one doing the sucking! 
True enough, two months later Danny called me said the payment stopped and he could not get back his money. Went to lawyers and all that and Lawyers told the group, yes, it was actually many who fell for the conjob, that since what they have signed are for “investment” and investments can fail, they have no legal recourse. Lawrence, when confronted, told Danny that he is prepared to go to jail. My friend moved on but did not become wiser, he still dabbles in MLM and lost his job when he was caught for not being on duty but rushing to meet some MLM contacts.
Don’t let your life be screwed up by these conmen. There are too many risks outside. Apply those simple questions when you are faced with proposals and yes, what differentiates a successful investor and a sucker is simply the difference in the number of right brain cells.
Reply
Some negative article appeared in The Star newpaper that day and so much negative talk going on. Today (15th July), actual explaination(and YES, good news) and suddenly no more sound.
Well, to those who still insist on ‘bad mouth’ about other peoples business, find some other place again and good luck.
Wondering again, what is the motive behind all this(bad mouth thing)? BTW, there’s always 2 sides to a coin. Depends on which side you are looking at.
Reply
Today I asked a friend to check out their office for me, here are some first impressions:
1) Their business registered address is in a private condo unit @ East Coast, not Orchard Road. You can check this by doing a search on ACRA website for free.
2) Their registered business activity is NOT in gold trading, its fee based consultancy.
3) They are selling gold bullion at 22% above spot. All on willing buyer, willing seller basis. If they fold, you will have NO CHANCE of claiming back any kind of money from them.
4) Their buy back guarantee comes with many conditions attached, which can deem it impossible to honor. For example: only 1 week time to sellback to them after 4 weeks of holding, only when their physical office is open, only with advanced notice, etc……
5) They claim to have $500k paid up capital, which is barely enough to buy back 10 kilos of gold bullion. Normally, paid up capital of a PTE LTD is meaningless because most of the time it is NOT CASH.
6) They are buying gold bullion from UOB then sell it at huge premium to customers. I wonder why their customers do not buy directly from UOB?
7) No ideas what their agents earn from promoting such a scheme, must be close to what OilPods people earned in the past. (another smart scam)
My own conclusion is obvious: Genneva is making a killing profit with innocent gold bullion investors. It’s just matter of time until they fold in SG. It is mathematically impossible for their scheme to work in the longterm.
Normally, smart scamers know their limits and will make lots of cash fast, then fold and disappear. I believe this one is no different. Better still, Genneva might even get away with their scheme in SG because they NEVER explicitly selling their product as an investment.
I don’t plan to hold you back from investing in their promises, just remember it is all you are paying for when paying such a premium above normal bullion price: A promise backed by nothing.
To all Genneva agents: feel free to sell your car, property and borrow money from banks, then invest with Genneva scheme. If you are fast & nimble, you might even be able to turn a profit before their door shuts.
Reply
Gold Dealer Reply:
July 16th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Dear GoldClubAsia,
How do you justify all your claims? How do you define scam in this case? Can I hv the company name in full that you mentioned above that is a smart scam so I can check from ACRA too? Do they hv a website so I can check on their website for detail info as well? Tks
Reply
Just finished reading the latest Genneva related article on thestar online, here my 2cents:
True: they sell REAL gold bullion to their customers
NOT true: they sell bullion @ DISCOUNT to their customers
Their price benchmark for bullion is the one that is meant for gold jewelry, NOT bullion. Those are two totally different products. One is for end user consumption, that price includes the workmanship for the gold ring/bracelet etc….
It’s like I would start selling CRUDE OIL to you at the price of gasoline.
Here are some guide lines for gold bullion:
1 Oz gold bullion 9999 selling for 3.7% above spot
100 gram gold bars 9999 selling for 2.5% above spot
1 KG gold bars 9999 selling for 0.5% above spot
Those are numbers for RETAIL investors, wholesale gets discount.
In Singapore, you have to add 7% GST on top of the numbers above.
The best place to buy bullion in SG is at UOB plaza.
The best place to sell bullion in SG is via GoldClubAsia.com (it’s all free & P2P, like Ebay but with more privacy)
Reply
Gold Dealer Reply:
July 16th, 2009 at 11:40 am
I don’t think GoldClubAsia.com offer the best price in SG. I dare to say that. If you don’t believe, let’s us try selling some gold bar!
Reply
To make the matter even simpler:
Business model “Cash Machine” or “CM”
1.Customer gives $1200 to “CM”
2.Customer gets $1000 back from “CM” immediately
3.Now, from here onwards, customer gets $20 back from “CM” every month.
outcome a: If “CM” pays out more than 10 months, customer win
outcome b: If “CM” folds before 10th payment is due, customer lose
The simple trick is: the first $1000 is never at risk, it has always been and will always be about the other $200.
This is the simple working behind Genneva or any other “smart ponzi”
It can last longer than 10 months as Madoff has proven it to the world.
Reply
AC Reply:
July 16th, 2009 at 2:23 am
GoldClubAsia,
The market have different types of investors. Like you, some will buy gold near spot price, and wait for the right timing to sell. Others prefer to buy jewelry at higher price or gold passbook or ETF / mining stocks or from company that offer discount & buy back guarantee etc.
With this in mind, different investment arms or trading company package their product to meet specific & targeted investors needs.
Some of the price base on near sport price, while others follow goldsmith association recommended retail price.
You setup a forum to target specific investor that prefer to buy / sell at near spot price and that have holding power a period of time, while others prefer a shorter term product, jewelry etc.
Each of the company have different mechanism to formulate their profit. Some employ different types of mechanism in order to generate profit.
It is easy to say company ABC will fail because by using the mechanism method that I know or from others, while I fail to realize there are other mechanism set in motion in order for the company to have healthy profit.
The point I am trying to bring across we tend to see how the company make money from our own view point and draw our own conclusion. The company have a bigger picture of what is going on and many different methods set in motion where we do not see.
So by judging a book by it’s cover is not enough, we need to read the content, make a visit to the company and hear from the horses mouth, the management, customer, supplier.
Reply
Let’s cut Genneva’s business model into smaller portion and try to look through the curtain:
Highly visible and advertised: selling genuine gold bullion
Less visible: attach a ponzi scheme to the gold and claim your potential losses will be covered by the gains you make with holding on to gold bullion.
The gold bullion you buy from Genneva IS backed by gold itself. No question about that.
The promised buyback and 2%/month payment AFTER the gold purchase is NOT backed the gold bullion you buy from them.
The beauty of this scheme is that since it is on willing buyer willing seller basis, the future victims will have a very very hard time to get a tangible claim on their loss due to a failure of the counter party. This is due to the way how they invoice their customers. On the invoice there is only one price, the overinflated price for gold bullion. Since you will be holding on to the gold, therefore you will never be able to prove that you have suffered any damages from the other promises by the company.
I have to say that this is one of the best constructed Ponzi since long time. Hat off to their starters!
Please stop hiding the ponzi behind gold. It has always been set up to prey on novice gold investors.
The premium that you are paying for their gold bullion is supposed to be used for their back office gold dealing to generate profit. This is one of the hallmarks for Ponzis: we know a secret to make money fast, but we can’t share the details with you due to our proprietary trading system.
I have a simple suggestion for all their future customers:
1) start organizing yourself now, get each others contacts. When Genneva folds, at least your voice will be heard by the media/mas/cad
2) ask Genneva to list your 2% monthly cashflow as a seperate item on your invoice, not just as footnote as conditions. When the crunch time comes, all your current invoices will show is that you have willingly bought gold bullion at overinflated prices in full agreement.
3) last but not least, ask yourself the simple question: if Genneva has such a super system to earn 24% per year riskfree, why they have not approached the big investors worldwide? I trade for a hedge fund currently, if you can show us how you make those profits securely, we can pump in $50m in your scheme next week.
Reply
Here is an link about another gold bullion ponzi scheme: OSgold
66000 clients, not bad at all.
http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUSTRE51N60K20090224
I believe Genneva is still in its early stage of development. Due to the fact that they only run ponzi on a relatively small percentage of client’s money, it will take good 1 -2 years until it really busts.
Right now, it is more a High Yielding Investment Program than a classical ponzi, where ALL of the client’s money goes to pay the previous investors.
Very well constructed, indeed. Exit for their founders already built in the system. I am impressed!
Reply
“NEW YORK (Reuters) – A man accused of running a multimillion-dollar Ponzi scheme in which investors were told their deposits were backed by offshore gold bullion reserves was arrested on Tuesday, nearly seven years after his operation shut down and he moved to Mexico, authorities said.”
Is there any similarity with Genneva apart from the word ‘Gold’?…..GoldClubAsia?
Why are you trying to mislead investors like us with this kind of news? Pls compare Apple for Apple, la!
Whatever business you are in and if you are in these forum to tell us 101 things negative about Genneva and 101 good thing good about your Business…..I only know 1 thing….You are a lousy marketeer and not a very professional businessman.
Go and find out how the biz is done at their office direct and then give us clearer comment.
(If you are so free ‘bad mouthing’ other people business here)
Maybe you should be able to make more money selling yourself elsewhere. (Here, you are losing points for every comment you make.)
Reply
can we stop all the personal attacks and flaming?
i can summarise all above posts into 3 points:
1. Gold sold by Genneva is real, but at an inflated price.
2. Investor can only make profit as long as Genneva honours its promise to buy back the gold at a guaranteed price.
3. Investor can only fall back on their gold holding (which will probably be worth much less than their purchase price unless gold appreciates greatly) if Genneva folds.
Reply
wholesaler Reply:
July 16th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
agree with Intheknow.. I think this website is meant for exchange of ideas and information, not personal attacks. So that at the end of the day, we make our own informed decision and not to blame anyone else.
I have personally gone through the nightmare of such scheme and am very clear how all these companies function. The sustainability issue have already been shared earlier on.
For existing investors, you just have to make sure that when you surrender the gold, the payment will have to be as soon as possible. Being a player myself, I know gold trade is COD (cash on delivery). If there is any delay, something is going wrong. As mentioned in earlier post, it’s good to know your agent well and get the contacts of other fellow investors.
Reply
a few links:
http://www.commodityonline.com/news/Genneva%E2%80%99s-gold-scheme-draws-brickbats–bouquets-19580-3-1.html
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2009/7/15/starprobe/4317875&sec=starprobe
http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/showthread.php?p=37530140
Reply
I fully expected Genneva scheme supporters to attack me on personal level. As people here mentioned before, when facts run out, discredit the naysayers is the easy way to distract from the focus points.
Fact 1: Genneva is in the business of selling a promise to return 2%/month to investors
Fact 2: This promise is paid in cash in advance by investors in form of a special premium over the bullion they buy
Fact 3: The gold changing hand here is irrelevant to fact 1 & 2, it can be replaced with any other items. In fact, diamond or platinum would be more suitable for such a scheme since it is far more compact.
Fact 4: OSGold scheme is identical to Genneva scheme except in one point: 100% of investor’s money was targeted by OSgold, Genneva only target 20% of their victim’s money.
Fact 5: The REAL promised return to investors by Genneva is NOT 2%/month, it is 10%/month. How did I get this number?
Since the investor will hold their own bullion, there is only the premium available to Genneva as cash pool to pay out their promise. The return promised is however on the entire investment size including the portion for bullion.
2(promised return on gold):20(premium over retail gold bullion) = 10% REAL return PER month on your capital at risk
Reply
AC Reply:
July 16th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Goldclubasia,
The Star article has more than 8 inaccurate, misleading and not base on facts about the company. The reporter did not visit the company and come up with his own conclusion. No sure if you visited and hear from the horses mouth – the management and came up with your conclusion that Genneva is akin to ponzi.
If I came up with a 20 “facts” about a girl I don’t like whom I hear or know from her friends, than I am not painting the true picture about her. In fact, I may only gotten 4 correct facts while others are misleading and not base on facts.
If I bad mouthing about a competitor to the public, whether base on right or wrong facts, how would other investors from the public going to trust me? I mean it show in my character of who am I. Don’t you think it is possible that I too can “bad mouth” my investor if the deal goes wrong with them?
Genneva in Malaysia follows the retail price from Federation of Goldsmith and Jewellers Association of Malaysia which represents 1000 plus retailers, wholesale, jewelers etc. Apart from Genneva, I guess other jewelers like Poh Kong, Wah Chan, etc selling gold at “premium” price too.
Reply
All investments carry risks. If you dont understand and cant afford to take the risk dont participate.
Reply
Hello all,
Wow its getting hot in here ..
Thought I should share some of the facts I’ve gathered.
To GoldClubAsia,
“They are buying gold bullion from UOB then sell it at huge premium to customers. I wonder why their customers do not buy directly from UOB?”
In case you are still in the dark, the reason why investors don’t buy directly with UOB is because UOB does not have a buy back guarantee at the original price. Its a totally different program altogether.
To GoldClubAsia,
“ask yourself the simple question: if Genneva has such a super system to earn 24% per year riskfree, why they have not approached the big investors worldwide? I trade for a hedge fund currently, if you can show us how you make those profits securely, we can pump in $50m in your scheme next week.”
Well if you were to look outside the box at the bigger picture, investors like myself feels even more secure to know that Genneva has in fact rejected not one but many corporations and big investors. To me this means that Genneva is operating a proper business and they have the majority investors interest at heart because :
1. Genneva could have just accepted a $50m account, sell the gold that was bought at wholesale (>20% off retail) and dissappear the next day giving them a cool tidy profit of at least $10m. Not bad for a days work !
2. Genneva could have accepted a $50m account, buy 900kg worth of gold and deliver it. One month later when the Buy Back Guarantee begins, buy another 900kg worth of gold to exchange with same investor. Come the 3rd month when Buy Back Guarantee begins again, investor decides to stop the program. Tell me what happens to Genneva ? They’ll be stuck with almost 2 tonnes of gold. Do I need to explain further ?
In business, its all about supply and demand. As a businessman, GoldClubAsia would you stock up tonnes of supply when you only have a fraction of that demand ?
As for me, I’m the adventurous kind of investor, an opportunity seeker, I take risk, calculated ones of course. I did ask myself these questions :
- Is the Genneva program really a ponzi scheme ?
- Is Genneva’s business model sustainable for the long term ?
- What if tomorrow Genneva fly by night ?
Honestly, no one can predict. All I know is that i have the appetite for a 20% risk of lousing my capital but I know that over time, my risk will diminish.
Finally I just want to add that this Genneva program is :
NOT FOR EVERYONE !!!
For those that have been hesitating for like more than 2 weeks, let me help you decide !
MOVE ON !!! FORGET GENNEVA !!!
You do not possess such an appetite.
- Opportunist
Reply
blursotong Reply:
July 16th, 2009 at 5:37 pm
To opportunist:
To GoldClubAsia,
“ask yourself the simple question: if Genneva has such a super system to earn 24% per year riskfree, why they have not approached the big investors worldwide? I trade for a hedge fund currently, if you can show us how you make those profits securely, we can pump in $50m in your scheme next week.”
Well if you were to look outside the box at the bigger picture, investors like myself feels even more secure to know that Genneva has in fact rejected not one but many corporations and big investors. To me this means that Genneva is operating a proper business and they have the majority investors interest at heart”
Wah u make it sound like Genneva is very socially responsible, dun want to let the big boys earn and let the man and the street take advantage instead..hmm..
and how do you know that they have rejected many big corporations ah?
Why doesn’t Genneva wouldn’t want to sell to the boys?
I can only think of:
1. the big corporations have done their homework, and concluded that it’s not feasible. Even GIC/Temasek want to buy Citi also need an army to evaluate right, cannot just throw our taxpayers $ away mah
2. Genneva may not even dare to sell the the big boys, because when it gets into trouble, they big boys will never let them off, ie sue until their pants drop. whereas the man on the street after kena con got no redress, call heaven call earth also no reply. unless its oei hong leong u selling to, then even if u are citibank still be sued
Just my opinion, dun flame me. peace
Reply
http://watcher-watchout.blogspot.com/2009/03/scammed-out-of-our-slippers.html
Congrats! Genneva is listed as the latest scam!
Seriously, I did not even know anything about their 4 tiers overriding commission scheme. This is a deadly giveaway:
Quote:
“Those without money to invest can join in as sales person with 4 tiers overriding commission of up to 1%. My friend asked me to burrow money from my insurance policy to invest in Genneva gold after I told him I have no money to invest. He quitted after one week citing non transparency of the company as a reason.”
Btw, I am NOT a competitor of Genneva. I am a gold futures trader for a hedge fund. We are not even allowed to take in any clients with less than $1m networth.
goldclubasia.com is just my pet project over the last 2 years to give retail gold bullion investors some free educational material and a platform to sell/buy bullion from each other without middlemen. I have never earned a single cent from that website.
If I want to compete with Genneva, all I need to do is to set up a shell company and offer 2.1%/month return. Probably with 3 months all their victims would switch over to my ponzi scheme. hahaha…..
Reply
JT Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 4:54 pm
GoldClubAsia,
Thank for your comments about Genneva is a scam & being a ponzi scheme and all.
But, Genneva is still surviving well, expanding & not running off with “victims” money.
Reply
Reading this whole list of comments is really informative and entertaining. But in my opinion, im more convinced by comments and replies of GoldClubAsia and Intheknow as they seems more supported with facts and focused on this company/ topic/ scheme, actively soughting answers from both the company’s available information and local legal sources. Like to say thank you — even if no other people on the forum is convinced, i am one forum reader that appreciate your insights. Thanks!
Reply
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-yield_investment_program
There is even a website that list up all HYIPs at once:
http://www.hothyips.com/
The key in making money off HYIP is to get in early and get out early.
Reply
suggestion to all Genneva investors:
1) buy your bullion from UOB plaza at 7.5% above spot
2) put 5% additional fund into any of those HYIPS online, starting capital is usually just $10 and their payout rate is better than Genneva
3) say good bye to your HYIP money, but your losses will be covered by the gold you bought from UOB
Look, I have just saved you 7.5% of your original capital!
Reply
The gold bar from UOB is exactly the same thing as those by this company.
Here’s UOB daily pricing. they make 2 way market:
https://uniservices1.uobgroup.com/secure/online_rates/gold_and_silver_prices.jsp?&#
Compare the price disparity with what Genneva. This is risk free arbitrage. Buy low at spot price and sell high at jeweller price.
Their guarantee buy back with 2% premium will continue as long as there are new investors buying over the bullion from them at their prevailing jeweller price.
As far as the less informed investors are concern, they dont really care much about having to pay premium for the same bullion because of the attractive 2% mthly return, which certainly beats buying the bullion for 20% cheaper but expose to risk of gold price going lower.
So, greed get the better of them, couple with the comfort that they are holding on to a piece of 24k gold bar gives them the confidence to commit into this investment.
The mentality is simple, worst case scenario if the company folds, the gold bar is in my possession.
The only problem is that you will have to wait for gold prices to rally 20% or more before you can sell it to breakeven, if the company bellies up and left you carrying the gold bar.
My take on this, buy gold from UOB and sell it to Genneva at 5% higher for a quick flip…..risk free arbitrage and no need to wait for 1 mth!! LOL!!!
Reply
Hi facts,
I would be very surprised if Genneva would ever take in any gold from sellers who did not buy from them at their inflated price.
You nailed it absolutely here. The greed for the 2%/month return gets hold the investor. The gold bar in their hand is no more than a confidence carrier.
It is also true that regardless the guaranteed buyback program by Genneva, the holder of the actual metal is always exposed to gold price fluctuation. After all, their buyback program is limited to only just one week and only during their office opening hours.
It is very simple for Genneva to default on this promise. They do not even need to fold their operations here. All they have to do is to declare a company office holiday for 1 months and probably all promises are expired by then.
They are very smart in writing their invoices. You actually never really paid for the guaranteed buyback. Their invoice only shows the gold, not their put option. Since you definitely received the gold, you will never be able to claim anything from them.
One more thing: unlike in Malaysia, it is illegal to make a market for new investment grade bullion product in Singapore. They are probably registered as a scrap gold operation at best. Definitely not MAS registered bullion dealers. After all, how do they verify the source of the fund of their buyers regarding anti-money launder laws here.
Btw, my friend who went there yesterday got a sms invite to join their marketing event this week. I don’t think he will go though. He wanted to buy 1 Kilo gold and now just bought today from UOB.
My year end target for gold by 31.Dec.09 is $1165. This will not make Genneva any more legit though. Best way to buy gold is still to buy physical gold as close to spot as you possibly can.
Reply
GoldClubAsia,
As long as nobody complaints and everyone continues to get their payout, the authorities and enforcement office here in Singapore will adopt hands off approach.
But all goods things must come to an end at some point in time, especially those too good to be true. We have seen it all….PIPS, GINS, 12DailyPro, Swiss Cash,Oilpods, Sunshine Empire, etc etc.
Statistically speaking most of these program last an average of about +/-2 yrs before it crumbles. Let see how long this one last…..
Reply
One more point to add, if gold rally 50% , you make only 2%. If gold collapse 50% and Genneva can’t raise enough cash to redeem all investors gold, your investment loss is 70% (50+20).
So, 2% maximum upside versus potential opportunity cost if gold rallies PLUS potential capital loss if gold collapse (and Genneva defaults), hmmmm……..
Reply
AC Reply:
July 17th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
Facts,
Historically gold index is not so volatile than stock index. When gold index goes down like from 960 ~ 790 in about a month last year, it also rebound back quickly within a short period. Unlike stock exchange, gold index does not maintain at 790 point until now. NYSE composite index drop from 8400 to 6000 between sept – oct 08, and since then, maintain at 6000 plus until now. Which mean, investor is now subject to a longer holding period as compare to a short holding period in gold.
In Malaysia, Genneva follows the “premium” retail price set by Federation of Goldsmith and Jewellers Association of Malaysia which represents 1000 plus “premium” retailer / jewelers / manufacturers. The retail price stay the same in a week or sometimes a month as long as the gold index is within the association min max band. On the other hand, gold index changes every minute. If the gold index drop, they will buy more gold, or vice versa, just like any other investment. Gold is on the uptrend market now. Even GoldClubAsia is targeting by 31.Dec.09, gold index will be at $1165.
In Spore, Genneva offer a 1 month contract with 2% discount and 100% buy back guarantee (BBG). Even though it is a 24% discount per year, but the mechanism of earning is not base on 1 year but 1 month, as the margin will be different when client renew it on 2nd month which base on new retail price during that period.
Giving a 2% per month using a basic retail & whole sale price structure is not a problem. Just like giving 5% discount when buying a T Shirt. When it comes to BBG, the retail & wholesale mechanism ALONE is not able to support that. This is where people say how can they give BBG? The reason is we view the formulated mechanism base on our experience which is limited to our on view point and not from what the management sees. This is where misinterpretation comes as we do not have the whole picture like what the management sees. There are other mechanism need to be set in motion in order to give BBG where the public is not aware like adding other component like mining/factory price, terms, leverage, etc.
Many were asking how can investor get a 2% discount in one month and is higher than banks or this or that company. For banks, is it because they can’t or simply because of regulatory set by BN/MAS etc?
There are many other financial product out there in the market that cater different investor needs. Is a huge market out there for everyone to eat.
my 2 cents…
Reply
To Goldclubasia:
1) ‘All good things must come to an end…’
Yours also will come to an end….dunno when? Unless yours no good la, ya?
2) Especially those too good to be true……
Dunno your ‘Biz’ under …Too good to be true, or Better than …too good to be true?
3) From what you are ‘bad mouthing’ Genneva, I think indirectly you maybe hitting at All goldsmith shop also.
They (goldsmith shop) buy gold bar and sell to customers at ‘Fixed gold price) then plus ‘freight charges/some claim somthing else’. Next day you sell back to them they deduct 15 to 25%. Immediate lost also, guaranteed risk.
U keep gold bar 3 days, 3 weeks, 3 years, etc….they no give 1 cent also, how?
4) You keep telling all the no good about ‘G’ and ask people to buy your product/service and claim yours 100% good…..
You know how many of my would be clients for ‘G’ turn me away just because of your ‘bad mouth’?
Come on la, be more professional…. you are just like going to people shop outside and trying to ask customers ‘Don’t buy from them, buy from me.’
Sincerely, I hope your biz last more than 30 years otherwise your can be considered a scam also la. (Maybe better than Madoff)
With your kind of knowledge and time spend here, I think you could have made tons of money already, unless you got nothing better to do.
I, 100% don’t like to buy from people like you, risk or no risk…. honestly, no offend Sir!
Reply
Curious Reply:
July 24th, 2009 at 1:04 am
andrew – are you a new agent from Geneva ? Or a buddy buddy of Qiyo ? Or both ??
Reply
It is a known fact that there’s a carry cost to owning physical gold. it basic investment 101.
To guarantee 2%/mth to long physical Gold without downside participation defies investment economics.
Why waste your time and effort selling to uncles and aunties when you have a ready pool of clients like the hedge funds as perhaps even Temasek Holdings and GIC?
GIC has a Gold and Forex team. I am sure they would be very keen to hear your proposal.
But than again, maybe you are only interested to help the poor uncles and aunties to make more money. The rich already has so much money so why help them right? Better to help the poor become poorer…oops I mean richer. hehe….
Reply
Wednesday July 15, 2009
Genneva sells gold and is not a ponzi scheme, says firm
PETALING JAYA: Genneva Sdn Bhd, a company that sells gold coins and bars to the public, said its business model is not a fraudulent investment operation.
“There may be Ponzi schemes in the market but it is obvious that Genneva is not one of them,” group senior manager Tony Yao said.
“We have a uniquely profitable, viable and sustainable business because our product which is gold is a safe haven in any time of uncertainty and is not subject to wild fluctuations in price in the world markets,” he said in a statement in response to Monday’s StarProbe article.
He said Genneva’s business model “enables customers to purchase physical gold at a discount” compared to domestic market prices.
The company also provided a conditional buy-back guarantee for the purchase at the same price that the customer had paid for the gold.
“What we do is we share our profits with our customers,” Yao said.
He said Genneva sources its gold needs from the international market, where prices can be lower by as much as 17% compared to the recommended retail selling prices by the Federation of Goldsmiths and Jewellers Associations of Malaysia.
The firm then sells its own issued gold coins and bars to the public at a discount compared with prevailing market prices set by the federation. It still would make a profit on these sales.
“We also provide a conditional buy back guarantee for our purchasers who may want to resell their gold after buying it. We are able to generate continuous income from our profits made from trading gold to enable us to repurchase gold from our customers if they wish to sell it back to us,” Yao said.
Under the scheme, Genneva’s obligation is to buy back the gold at the same price without discount after a so-called 90-day holding period. There is a week’s grace to sell the gold back to Genneva. Any sale back to Genneva before or after 97 days will be at lower prices to be negotiated.
Yao said Genneva gave a discount of around 5% on the domestic market price set by the federation. The discount is paid either at the time of purchase or up to three months after that in instalments.
Yao said Genneva guaranteed the standard and purity of all gold coins issued by the company as 99.9%. This means customers can also sell their gold coins or bars purchased from Genneva at any goldsmiths that accept gold trade-ins.
“Gold is expensive to sell because goldsmiths generally give you a lower price than actual market value when they buy from customers,” Yao said.
In the statement, Genneva said the company’s business of buying and selling physical gold does not require a licence to operate from Bank Negara.
“Genneva is no more than an ordinary goldsmith shop with an extraordinary business model,” Yao said. On June 28th, the group formed Samudra-GV Sdn Bhd with “a vision to open up the gold market to Malaysians of every race and religion by making the product available to people from all walks of life.’’
“In the near future, our gold product will be rebranded as SGV Bullion,” the statement said
Reply
lioninvestor Reply:
July 17th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
“We are able to generate continuous income from our profits made from trading gold to enable us to repurchase gold from our customers if they wish to sell it back to us”
Question: If everyone is selling the gold they bought from Genneva back to them, where would the trading profit come from?
Which means that one day, they have to stop all buybacks, leaving everyone with their gold.
Reply
GoldClubAsia Reply:
July 17th, 2009 at 5:58 pm
Yes, absolutely correct!
Only those who can redeem their payment before their closure will get out of this scheme without losing any money.
It is designed to fail sooner or later. Warning people about this scheme AFTER its collapse in couple of months is really then pointless.
Reply
Intheknow,
did u receive any reply from MAS? Malaysia authorities already responded and our world class gahmen still haven’t make a response?
Reply
Intheknow Reply:
July 17th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
no response from MAS yet..
Reply
To andrew: non of your points are valid, I have no products to sell to anyone. I have repeated here many times that I am a professional COMEX gold trader. GoldClubAsia.com is a free website for people to buy/sell bullion from/to eachother. There is no commission/costs involved for any parties. Its discussion forum is also free for anyone to join. I don’t even know who is exactly selling/buying gold bullion on goldclubasia.com. It’s usage is spread by word of mouth because people usually can get a big portion of their 7% GST back from the next private buyer. This is better than selling it back to UOB.
To AC: Legally speaking, Genneva is not licensed to sell any kind of products that promises interests payment here in SG without been licensed by MAS. Also, selling brand new gold bullion to retail customers need to be licensed as well. (I don’t know about the facts in Malaysia)
I suspect that the advertised CID registration is as second hand goods buyer, like those Arang Gunis.
If Genneva simply just sell gold bullion at overinflated prices to its customers, you might still get away with it.
The key is the 24% annual payout. This is the ONLY reason why people would consider buying your gold bullion at inflated price.
This is the component of your business model that I have been warning people about, not the gold bullion itself.
Yes, selling gold bullion at 20% premium over spot is definitely sustainable.
No, promising 24% per year payout without proper licensing is ILLEGAL and NOT SUSTAINABLE.
Reply
AC Reply:
July 19th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Goldclubasia,
Actually, Genneva is offering discount, and not interest as in investment product. There is not need to get a license etc to trade such business from Bank Negara. I believe it is also the same in Spore.
This is where the Star Paper wrote about the article got all their facts wrong.
You are right, Genneva use second hand goods licensing from Police Licensing Dept. One of the criteria in using this license is to declare all transaction records to the Police. This is to reinforce that the company selling 100% pure gold to investors.
http://www.spf.gov.sg/licence/frameset_SD.html
In Malaysia, Genneva uses goldsmith association recommended retail price which is about 15% or more from spot price. The retail price is decided by association which represents 1000 plus retails / goldsmith. They just follow retail price set by the association.
Reply
Assuming that Genneva is not contravening any legal issues (new gold / promise of interest / etc), it appears that the main scenarios for Genneva’s customers are as follows:-
1. Gold uptrend
2. Gold stable
3. Gold downtrend
In (1), if gold reaches GoldClubAsia’s $1165 target at 31.12.09, that represents a 24% upside to current prices of $940, in 6 months, and pays out 2%/month for 6 months, that would represent asset appreciation less rebate of ~6-12% of the base of funds that customers have placed with Genneva. Seems eminently likely that Genneva can continue to have a going business, with the option of liquidating on the open market if there is a need for liquidity.
In (2) & (3), if Genneva’s premium margins are 20% vs the 2% rebate, then as long as >10% of its base does not return the gold each month, then margin revenues cover rebate payments. If the margins are larger, then a smaller proportion of the base is needed to retain the gold.
Genneva’s product (2nd hand gold bullion with buy-back guarantee) will not appeal to bullish gold investors who would rather pocket the full upside to uptrend gold.
Genneva’s product seems designed to appeal to gold novices, who are able to handle some risk (limited portion of their portfolios in gold), and gain Genneva’s upside guarantee, comparatively to taking the full volatility of stocks/commodities/etc – ie, rather than timing the market/going long, to let Genneva go long, while taking the Genneva’s “guarantee” of 2% rebate per month.
Hence, GoldClubAsia and large institutions will pass over Genneva, just because they would rather take the full upside, and are able to, because of their capitalisation level, as compared to retail investors.
The uptrend scenario is reasonably rosy for both Genneva and its customers. The flat/downtrend scenarios or a Genneva default scenario are uncertain. It would appear reasonable to assume that Genneva will discontinue its product if gold futures turn flat/down, so customers should not count on a permanent 2%/month rebate.
2 main risks remain – insufficient permanent “sales” with a too flat uptrend coupled with a liquidity run. Likely to be mitigated by the 30+7D structure, that limits the gold returns to a fraction of the outstanding gold at any point of time. If gold prices are rangebound for extended periods (6-12 months?), Genneva’s 2%/month payouts might then start to be funded by new customers (a la ponzi!).
All this assumes that Genneva has no other revenue channels apart from its main product of gold with buy-back guarantee.
Reply
the attempts by genneva supporters/agents like qiyo, AC and many many others to deflect the attention away from how the ponzi scheme works is really entertaining.
Extremely well structured scheme. They buy retail gold bullion from UOB, add a 20% markup, and then proclaim that they are selling at 5% discount from goldsmith prices.
Like GCA and may others have said. The entire point of genneva’s scheme is to target this 20% premium. And this 90 day waiting period buyback guarantee reduces the effective yield per purchase to 0.67%.
Legally, these guys will never get caught. They sell openly to morons at an 18% premium per contract of sale, and to get that ‘24%’ annuak yield effectively means that genneva buys back, and resells 12 contracts of the same piece of bullion at an 18% premium everytime.
So if the moron complains, or when genneva effectively folds – they are liable for nothing.
As 2nd hand dealers, they can tell the CAD “well, i sold 2nd hand gold which i bought first hand from UOB to the moron that willingly bought it from me for an 18% premium. The following month, he returned the piece and i refunded him what he paid for and sold him another piece of gold for an 18% premium again. I didn’t promise him a stable rate of return of 2% per month. I’m just selling gold to morons at an 18% premium when they could have just gotten it from UOB much less if they weren’t that dumb”
All that nonsense about gold vs inflation, physical gold as protection etc etc is just distraction and noise to distort the fact that they are selling gold at an 18% premium, and if you don’t want to continue with them, your effective yield is 0.67% per month. i suspect that when the 97 days have passed, some nonsense will crop up and you will get less than what you paid for, assuming gold prices stay the same.
Reply
InterestInGold Reply:
July 20th, 2009 at 12:43 am
Any feedback on the analysis that an uptrend gold line with dispersed liquidity dates enables Genneva to go long on customers’ monies with low likelihood of liquidity issues based on customer runs, facilitate a short-term going business while avoiding ponzi accusations?
It would seem that the effective yield in Malaysia (0.67%/mth) is lower than in Singapore (2%/mth). Why would this be?
It would seem that the Genneva product is designed to substitute alternatives such as fixed deposits, rather than actual gold bullion. Comments?
Reply
Thanks Qiyo. Actually i am one of the smartest in this forum – at least much smarter than the morons that choose to ignore the fallacies of genneva, and continue to buy at an 18% markup on the same gold they can buy at Menara UOB in KL, or UOB Plaza in SG.
But i must agree with you – those genneva customers that enter early might just be able to break even before the scheme unravels. If you enter now, you will just be able to break even in 9 months assuming they are still around. Thus you’ll only start making any profit on your principal AFTER 9 months. Now throw in that 97 day waiting period before you get your money back, you’re looking at a vesting period of about 1 year before you’re clear.
So to those that have already bought genneva gold at a premium – keep your fingers crossed mates.
For potential genneva purchasers, here’s what an e.g. $100k ‘investment’ is looking at:
- you just paid $100k for something worth $80k if you spent RM/$10 on a cab ride to UOB and bought PAMP gold over the counter
- you’re effective giving away $20k away upfront, which reduces every month by 2%. You’ll get back this $20k in about 12 months due to their 97 day waiting period
- you’re giving away $20k to a limited liability company, registered in a condo, backed by an unknown with zero track record in the fiscal world, who really can’t even string proper grammatical sentences
- and in Singapore, because you bought from these guys and don’t have a UOB receipt, you can’t easily sell back to the bank and will have to sell for even less at the pawnshops. That or you can pray that genneva will still be around at breakeven in 9 months, and wait 3 months for your cash to arrive
Harvard grads with ferrarris living in posh penthouses screwed up their clients investments. Will you trust this bunch of hacks with your investment? Esp after they are demanding 20% upfront and state nothing in their receipts? it’s like going to a mamak stall and asking the uncle to buy 10 contracts of September Brent with a stoploss mechanism mirrored on Topix.
Genneva can NEVER substitute fixed deposits. Nothing that penalizes the principal investment at 20% upfront, which only breaks-even from month 9, and a wait of 3 months can substitute a fixed deposit.
Banks in Singapore offer SGD deposits to private banking customers at 1.85% per annum. Banks in Malaysia offer 4.215% to pb customers. High net worth individuals, please consult with your private banker
For the rest, save your hard earned money. If you want an inflation-hedge, go to UOB and buy gold and keep the receipt. when you want to sell, bring your gold and receipt to UOB to sell.
Reply
InterestInGold Reply:
July 20th, 2009 at 8:07 am
Dear Goof,
Am unclear as to why you’d say that breakeven is in 9 months. Isn’t Genneva’s rebate based on 30 days? And where is the 97 day waiting period from?
In the scenario of Genneva defaulting, isn’t that based on factors such as (1) liquidity, (2) management decision / prospective fraud (if any), (3) government / authority intervention, etc, all of which have the bases of have yet to be established clearly?
My analyses so far suggest that Genneva can (not necessarily will) continue indefinitely in an uptrend gold market, and that barring the risk of Genneva default, Genneva’s product trades that risk for certainty in gold returns (2%/mth), vis-a-vis personally taking a long position in gold at UOB where one is exposed to gold market volatility.
If customers assess the risk of Genneva default as minimal for any particular month (since they could activate the buyback guarantee for the full quantum of cash), then the 20% premium over spot price would become irrelevant, and actually beneficial to the customer, since the 2% rebate is given on the total amount of monies – the risk only being activated in a default scenario. As long as scenarios for default risk and liquidity risk do not materialise, the Genneva product mirrors a 30day/90day deposit instrument. Customers that wish to test Genneva’s liquidity / redemption process could insist on a full cash/cheque redemption, the failure of which would immediately allow the individual to pursue a breach of contract claim against the company, while the company still has other customers’ cash or gold stocks on hand to pay off the claim. It would appear that Genneva would have an incentive to fully pay off all such customers as long as its business is viable, since the first instance of default would inspire a run on its business.
It would seem that Genneva’s product in SG would appeal to customers that (1) don’t want to be directly exposed to the volatility of gold markets, (2) have surplus cash and are able to take a 20-25% drop in the gold portfolio only in the case of business failure of Genneva, (3) desire a better periodic return than FDs, (4) prefer physical gold bullion in hand rather than a gold certificate at a bank (UOB) that might not be honored or might have delays in liquidity in the event of a national crisis.
Reply
goof Reply:
July 20th, 2009 at 10:51 am
1. The 97 day thing is from the Star press report :”Under the scheme, Genneva’s obligation is to buy back the gold at the same price without discount after a so-called 90-day holding period. There is a week’s grace to sell the gold back to Genneva. Any sale back to Genneva before or after 97 days will be at lower prices to be negotiated.”
2. Genneva defaulting will just be like any pte ltd company defaulting. They can wind up for example, and its directors protected with limited liability. Because the company was very smartly structured, it does not flout any law as it essentially is a reseller of 2nd hand gold at a 20% markup which its customers willingly pay
3. Again you are distracting the issue. Gold bullion is gold bullion, whether it trades up or down is separate from the key issue of whether 20% should be paid as a premium upfront. Anyone who buys gold of any form is taking a long position.
4. What contract? Genneva protects itself by selling month-on-month gold bullion at a 20% markup, with a 2% rebate. IF Genneva provides a receipt/agreement that states that of the sum invested, 80% is backed with gold bullion in the possession of the investor, and 2% will be paid monthly on the total invested. If Genneva wants to pass itself off as legitimate, do a proper receipt first, dun have to play admin games if you are legitimate.
5.1. buying gold whether through Genneva or UOB you are already opening up yourself to gold volatility. the difference here is that you’re hoping that a pte ltd company registered to a condo with nil tangible assets will honor the buyback when shit hits the fan
5.2. Like i said, its like paying $20k out of a $100k portfolio to a mamak shop uncle to trade precious metal derivatives
5.3. Banks in SG insure all deposits, backed by the printing press of the central bank. A ‘deposit’ with Genneva is backed by an unwritten, uncontracted, unsanctified promise.
5.4. If you prefer gold bullion, just buy gold bullion from UOB.
Reply
InterestInGold Reply:
July 20th, 2009 at 11:22 am
1. It seems that the 97-day characterisation by Star and its implicit understanding that the cash is only available after 97 days is imprecise. It’d appear that between days 90-97, a malaysian customer would be able to return the gold for cash/equivalent. After 97 days, the buy-back guarantee is off, price paid by Genneva is not guaranteed. For Singapore, the timing seems to be 30-37 days by way of contrast.
2. Agree with you on the implications of a plc folding – limited liability for directors.
3. Gold bullion distraction. Unclear why this is seen as a distraction. May be absolutely material, when the customer is not fully convinced to personally take a long position, and is satisfied with a counterparty to take the long position in exchange for a fixed return, and where the underlying value of the asset (gold or any other equivalent and liquid security) is transparent. A focus on the 20% premium is valid when the investor wishes to capture the full upside while bearing the full volatility of the market – this doesn’t seem to be the profile of customers that Genneva is targeting.
4. Could you clarify what you mean by “legitimate” and a proper receipt? It actually seems to me that Genneva is taking on extra exposure by tagging a 20% premium, since it also pays the 2% rebate on the 20% premium; the premium does seem to give it some buffer, but the overall approach appears to be one of designing a mechanism to facilitate company upside with customer funds in an uptrend gold market.
5.1. Agree that there is some volatility exposure through Genneva, but the risks seem to be more corporate (Genneva) related, rather than direct from market. How does one quantitatively assess the differences in risk? The scenario when “shit hits the fan” appears to me to be limited to 2 cases – (1) company default while payout is pending to customer, (2) downtrend gold market with devaluation of gold bullion either in company’s or customer’s hands.
Has anyone done profiling of Genneva’s directors and their related businesses? One would imagine that the directors are reputable with significant businesses, they would be disinclined to participate in fraud, if indeed it is being perpetuated through Genneva. After all, firearms are more accessible in Malaysia than in Singapore.
Reply
Key Difference in UOB vs Genneva gold
UOB:
- Gold bullion at about 15-25% less than goldsmith/pawnbroker rates in both Singapore and Malaysia, or about 10% above London SPOT
- Your receipt allows you to freely sell back to UOB at prevailing published rates pegged to London SPOT.
- If the price of gold rises, you make
- If gold rises by a lot today, i can immediately go to UOB tomorrow and get cash
Genneva:
- You pay 20% over UOB sell prices for the same bullion if you bought direct from UOB
- You will have difficulty selling to UOB w/o a receipt when Genneva folds
- If the price of gold rises, you make on the bullion you have. But your 20% (minus whatever ‘rebates’ you have gotten) is still stuck with Genneva
- If gold rises by a lot today, i have to wait 97 days before i can get my money from Genneva. They might even give me the proceeds in cheque – i do hope the cheque clears
- If i choose not to sell back to Genneva, i lost my 20% premium. And UOB might refuse to buy from me, leaving me no choice but to sell to pawnshops and goldsmiths at a further 20% discount. Thus my total losses from this exercise might hit 40% at the end of the day.
Reply
InterestInGold Reply:
July 20th, 2009 at 9:19 am
Dear goof,
Good work in making UOB-Genneva comparisons. I wonder though if your analyses are as thorough and relevant to all groups of customers.
In UOB’s case, what happens if gold prices are range bound? No returns to customers, with bid/ask spreads to pay for liquidity?
A significant rise in gold with ability to act on it would appeal to day/short-term traders in gold. This would be supported by UOB’s product, but requires the customer to be able and desiring to take the full volatility of the gold market and having a view on the market to enter/exit it. This would classify the customer as rather sophisticated, rather than the “simpler” decision of a potential Genneva customer in letting the Genneva go long in gold while being satisfied with only a portion of the upside.
The model that Genneva operates seems to dissuade customers from selling the gold elsewhere, except to return to Genneva for its buy-back guarantee. The only case where this might differ is when within the 30/90 day period, gold rises by >15%. Under what scenarios might this happen? If the USD loses its hegemony? If N.Korea/S.Korea go to war? If Iran gets nuclear weapons? If the market rally fizzles or flattens with inflation worries? Physical gold might be nice then.
Since these macro risk factors are unrealised and just risks, a potential Genneva customer would be one who is uncertain on the risk outlook, unwilling to take the full gold volatility, satisfied with monthly upside with premium paid gold to hedge against gold market price shocks. This category of customers looks very different from the sophisticated gold investors on this website. If Genneva’s business is doing as well as they claim, then it would be indicative that the existing gold products do not adequately serve the market and that Genneva has identified and is serving a certain niche.
The key question is whether a Genneva customer has adequate protection. Apart from the scenario of default in payment of the buyback guarantee where the loss is potentially 100%, all other scenarios would have the customer in possession of pieces of gold at 75-80% of the amount paid. The case of a 100% loss might occur over 2-3 days if all customers for that period take payment in the form of cheques that bounce. The earlier analysis indicates that Genneva would not have any interest in allowing any default because it would spark a liquidity run and effectively have the potential to close down the company. If the customer is fully aware of these scenarios and chooses to take up Genneva’s gold product, then it indicates a certain type of customer profile that has balanced the returns against the risks. Certainly might look stupid to the professional investor who can handle the volatility of the market directly, but might not necessarily be that stupid. Question is, stupid, relative to what?
Reply
goof Reply:
July 20th, 2009 at 10:59 am
Genneva’s system is set up to discourage early redemption from the outset.
Genneva customers can only break even after 10 months of ‘rolling over’ their initial investment, and then have to wait a further 97 days before they get cash in hand.
Thus because of this set up, the propensity of existing customers to continue to roll-over their ‘investment’ even after the 10 month breakeven period is high. Thus you are right that there cannot be a liquidity run otherwise the game/scheme is up.
Reply
InterestInGold Reply:
July 20th, 2009 at 11:26 am
Seems that there is a difference of understanding of the 97 days. 90+7 days appears to apply to Malaysia; 30+7 days appears to apply to Singapore.
If liquidity run risk has been adequately handled through the structure of the buy-back approach, would it be fair to describe the main risks that remain to be that of (1) fraud / business failure, (2) downtrend gold market?
Reply
You know the cool thing about this blog? It’s now ranked #2 in global Google rankings if you search the keyword ‘genneva’
At least now, before investors make rash decisions, they can google, stumble across this blog post, and read the discussions here. and hopefully, the arguments here create enough talking points that they start taking a step back, and start asking smart questions before making rash decisions.
Reply
no problem Qiyo.
Stay safe. Good luck.
Reply
goof… i think what you said made a lot of sense. thanks for typing your views all out.
I just hope that potential investors who read all the posts will realise the truth about Genneva.
If they choose to go in with their eyes open, there is nothing we can do. Afterall, Genneva (as far as I know) is indeed still paying out the returns as promised.
Let’s wait and see how long it will last.
From the replies from Securities Commission of Malaysia and Bank Negara, I get the impression that they are investigating Genneva but there is nothing much the law can do against Genneva now. Somewhat of a loophole in law with regards to the structuring of their business.
MAS has yet to response.
Reply
EatGoldSleepGold Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 4:02 pm
I agreed with your post here.
My point of view is it worked genuinely so far, and they did not breached or cheated the client’s money as until today whereby the quantity and gold price are follow legally as Malaysia Gold Association. （馬來西亞金商公會）
(1) They did not process any illegal purchase by not giving physical gold to clients for safe-keeping upon purchase sealed.
(2) The did not provide/give any fraud product and quantity of gold so far. As I personally brought my few pieces of GVgold to be examined by 10 gold retail shops, pawn shop and I even went to Bank Rakyat to examine it. They claimed the authencity of gold is 100% Pure Gold and the weight is accurate. They’re happy and praise the design of GV Gold, and in fact want to offer me a collacteral loan.
(3) They did not failed to provide the monthly discount, which most of retail shops cant do. It’s very unfair to Genneva because imagine when one company is genuinely and sincere to share his portion of profit with us, isn’t it wonderful thing? whereby, we as a client should have no fear while we are safe-guard the gold at home. The concept is like giving back, doing something good, share the merits. NOT like the other gold retails, see how arrogant are they when we walk in their shop, and most of this shop owner are all super rich because of what? … Because retail shop swallow all their profit without “giving back” discount to client. Even they did so, how many times can a client walk back again the same shop to buy gold??? The answer is “NOT REALLY”.
Since its “NOT REALLY”, then why should they provide further discount to us? In d end, we became like their joker while they’re filling rich.
Loopholes: Client can get-rid from income tax declaration.
Speaking of loopholes is probably 2.5% is a nett profit income that caused many gold shop sector, ah-long(money lender) jealous about how Genneva help the consumer to gain some profit when they purchase gold at Genneva.
Probably, Msia Gov sector is jealous about client’s profit is not declared to be taxed.
Example: If offical purchase（買斷）(original official receipt issued), normally selling price already incurred with GST.
BUT, if with Genneva’s concept, it is consider that each purchase is not completely 100%sold due tied with the E&E.O (90days) conditions. So, which means during these 90days, client is not completely own the gold yet, unless and until the 90days is overdue.
I may not sound good in my english grammar here, but I wish you kind fellas here is kind to share your view with me. We are learning each day. Thank you people here.
Best wishes
Reply
goof Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 11:02 pm
oh you poor thing – seems like they have you brainwashed good.
genneva is not being kind hearted. au contrare – even the ah long envies them as they manage to grab a 20% markup upfront.
don’t confuse the matter further. The issue is simple:
Genneva charges 20% premium on a common, easily available item. They use a web of guises, promises and complex ‘rates of return’ to extend for as long as possible this 20% premium to be in their coffers.
Why do you keep comparing to goldsmith shops? Of course they charge higher for retail gold items and gold jewellery. But genneva is not trading retail items – they are giving gold bullion which ALWAYS is traded at a 15-25% discount to what goldsmiths charge
‘giving back’ is like many previous arguments, a hugeass lie. to put it another way:
I have a one ringgit coin. I will sell it to you at RM1.20. But dun worry, upfront i give you 2.5% so you only pay RM1.18. Every month you come back renew, i buy back the RM1 coIn from you at what you paId, but you must buy It back from me at RM1.20 agaIN – dun worry, I’ll gIve you another 2sen back as ‘INterest’. and by the way, If you want to stop thIs ‘rollover’ scheme, you need to fIll IN a form and waIt 97 days before I gIVe you back your money IN full
Reply
My common sense tells me that UOB would have love to sell you Gold at 20% mark up just like Genneva did. What is it so unique and special about Genneva that they are the only one doing these business when people in the gold and mining industry who had been in these business for yons never even consider using such a “lucrative” business model?
This itself already raise a red flag.
Reply
没投资的别在这里说有的没的。。你不烦啊。。！！！
Reply
山巴老。。这里是让我们来讨论我们的想法。。
你算老几？？
Reply
http://www.bnm.gov.my/index.php?ch=8&pg=14&ac=1874
Bank Negara Malaysia Investigates Genneva Sdn Bhd and Etika Emas Estet Sdn Bhd
Bank Negara Malaysia has commenced investigations into Genneva Sdn Bhd and Etika Emas Estet Sdn Bhd under suspicion of conducting illegal deposit taking activities in breach of subsection 25(1) of the Banking and Financial Institutions Act 1989 (BAFIA).
The raids on Genneva Sdn Bhd and Etika Emas Estet Sdn Bhd were conducted today at their premises in Klang Valley following information received from members of the public.
Members of the public are reminded to be cautious of deposit taking schemes and investment schemes offered through various channels such as the internet, phone calls, or seminars conducted by individuals or companies that are not licensed or approved by the relevant authorities.
Members of the public may refer to the list of licensed institutions authorized to accept deposits which is available on Bank Negara Malaysia’s website ( http://www.bnm.gov.my).
For further enquiries, members of the public can contact Bank Negara Malaysia at the following contact points:
BNMTELELINK (Customer Service Call Centre)
Tel: 1-300-88-5465
Fax: 03-21741515
Email: bnmtelelink@bnm.gov.my
BNMLINK (Customer Service Walk-In-Centre)
Block D, Bank Negara Malaysia ,
Jalan Dato’ Onn, 50480, Kuala Lumpur
(Business hours: Monday-Friday, 9.00 am – 5.00 pm)
Bank Negara Malaysia
21 July 2009
Reply
lioninvestor Reply:
July 21st, 2009 at 8:50 pm
When it comes to such matters, the Malaysia authorities seems to be always quite prompt in their actions compared to Singapore.
Reply
Intheknow Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 10:04 am
Good game.
Reply
facts Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 4:43 pm
Singapore authorities must wait for directives and clearance, chopped, signed, stamped, vet, approved, form committee, discuss, review, confirm, chopped one more time, signed again, final clearance from all department, assign task to relevant dept, dept assign investigating officer, officer attends briefing, got questions, tomorrow meet again and discuss, prepare press release, send press release for clearance, chopped, signed, stamped, approved……….ZZzzzzzzZzzzzzzzZZZz
Reply
My my… the silence from the genneva agents in light of the bank negara crackdown is deafening.
Reply
Intheknow Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:00 pm
let’s wait for the results of the investigation.
Reply
Checking is positive, investigate is positive so can follow right measures.
If everything is alright after, means its no more “too good to be true”. Will you guys buy?
Reply
facts Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 7:14 pm
That is exactly what one of the director of Sunshine Empire said when there were raided and investigated by the authorities last year
Reply
Voice of Reason Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 7:36 pm
Plain old common sense will prevail. The answer is NO.
Reply
Well done!
Reply
This is from Etika Emas
****Halaman web utama Etika Emas akan ditutup sementara untuk memberi laluan kepada sorotan perkembangan sisatan Bank Negara terhadap Etika Emas****
22 Julai 2009,
5 petang Pihak Etika Emas Estet Sdn Bhd telah mengadakan kenyataan akhbar bertempat di Malaysia Institute of Management pada jam 3 hingga 4.30 petang yang dihadiri antaranya oleh TV3, Bernama dan The Star. Menurut sumber TV3, rakaman akan disiarkan Buletin Utama malam ini. ***Salinan kenyataan akhbar akan dipaparkan kemudian.***
21 Julai 2009,
9 malam Pihak Etika Emas Estet Sdn Bhd akan mengadakan kenyatan akhbar pada 22 Julai jam 3.00 petang untuk menafikan bahawa Etika Emas Estet Sdn Bhd terlibat dalam pengambilan wang deposit haram.
21 Julai 2009,
8 malam Buletin Utama telah menyiarkan berita bahawa Etika Emas Estet Sdn Bhd dipercayai telah mengambil wang deposit haram dan sedang disiasat oleh BNM dibawah Banking and Financial Institutions Act 1989 (BAFIA).
21 Julai 2009, 11.00 pagi Premis Etika Emas di Holiday Villa telah didatangi oleh Unit Siasatan Khas Bank Negara diketuai oleh pegawai penyiasat Encik Aziz. Siasatan telah berlanjutan sehingga pukul 5 petang. Dalam proses ini beberapa dokumen telah diambil untuk membantu siasatan.
****Kami berharap pelanggan Etika Emas Estet Sdn. Bhd. tidak membuat sebarang spekulasi dan menunggu berita dan maklumat dari halaman web ini dari semasa ke semasa. Sekian terima kasih.****
Reply
The STAR News
Wednesday July 22, 2009
Bank Negara probes two firms after complaints
PETALING JAYA: Bank Negara Malaysia (BNM) is investigating Genneva Sdn Bhd and Etika Emas Estet Sdn Bhd on suspicion of conducting illegal deposit-taking activities.
The central bank said in a statement posted on its website yesterday that it raided the premises of Genneva and Etika Emas in Klang Valley yesterday following public complaints.
Officials from the two companies say that they are giving full cooperation to the central bank investigators.
Etika Emas president Mohd Amin Supian said he was surprised when Bank Negara officers’ visited his company.
He said that he was told that the visit was a routine check on the business operation.
He added that Etika Emas was a legitimate business dealing in physical gold.
A Genneva official, who did not want to be named, declined to comment except that his company was cooperating with Bank Negara.
Last week, Genneva senior general manager Tony Yao in a response to a StarProbe article said that his company’s business model is not a Ponzi scheme.
He explained that the company sold gold coins and bars to the public at a 5% discount to the prices set by the Federation of Goldsmiths and Jewellers Associations of Malaysia.
Reply
Well done! Applause! The Malaysians deserve my fullest respect for this swift action! Now it’s time for MAS/CAD to make their moves!
Warning to all Genneva investors: better pull ALL of your funds NOW before its been taken into custody of the investigators.
Warning to all Genneva agents: even if you did not know this is a scam, better get out and erase your connections to Genneva asap.
Remember that if you are found with Heroin in your luggage at the airport, even if someone put into it without letting you know, you will still be terminated.
Congrats to all the people here who supported our cause of TRUTH.
Special thanks to the blog owner for letting this thread becoming a beacon of light for the new gold investors.
Reply
Intheknow Reply:
July 23rd, 2009 at 8:53 am
so lion.. when treating us to dinner for possibly increasing your blog’s advertisement revenue!
Reply
lioninvestor Reply:
July 24th, 2009 at 7:35 am
Hi Intheknow,
Will be happy to do that. When are both of you free?
Reply
I wonder why some people are very happy businesses closed due to their judgement. Hey, you can’t go round and complain if you have not invested or lost anything in any venture, ya?
Just like someone just mentioned about interests is 4% in Msia bank and trying to misled everyone. Now tell me which bank pays you this 4%?
There are always ’sio ren’(little people) who like to see company closed and will complain to the authorities. Why, nothing better to do?
Thousand thanks to the one who make the official complain and make life difficult for all investors.
If Genneva closed and if not better MYOB!!!!!!! (You know got Kama one?)
1) If Genneva closed (due to outsiders complaining….dunno for what, or maybe cannot tahan see others make some money) then thanks to them for making life miserable for us and the Company.
2) If no closed, then better u join opposition parties and fight for the people rights rather than busybody here.
Reply
only intheknow n goldclubasia 2 people chat only…we don care about them.. (little people) ^_”
Reply
GoldClubAsia Reply:
July 23rd, 2009 at 11:32 am
Hi benny, you can’t read those comments by people like goof etc?
If you are an agent for Genneva, better run & cut off all ties. CAD will come after you later even if you really genuinely believe that this is a legit business.
This is Singapore, don’t play play with MAS/CAD, ok?
Reply
Illegal deposit taking & money laundering are serious offenses here in SG. Millions in fines and people go to jail for LOOOOONNNNNGGGG time for that!
Genneva is NOT a legal business. It was set up from the start as a scam and we should all unit as gold investors to fight scammers.
To all Genneva agents: please google about “illegal deposit taking” to wise up!!!! RUN before you are caught as well!!!!
For a taste of what is still to come:
http://politics.sgforums.com/users/232505/posts
Reply
Simple guide for Genneva investors:
1) file claim for your guaranteed buyback ASAP, you MIGHT still get ALL of your money back here in SG before CAD close them down
2) file police report IMMEDIATELY if Genneva give you any kind of excuses NOT to refund you
3) pay $5 to do an ACRA search on Genneva so you know who you should be filing your claims against. Hint: those infos on your invoices are mostly not accurate, designed to mislead you.
4) if they close their office @ Orchard Towers, go to their registered address first, then file police report there on site.
5) pls remember: they will do all they can to assure you that there is NOTHING wrong with a raid on them in Malaysia etc… It’s all just delay tactic to buy themselves some time. If you wait, you will not see your money again. DO IT NOW! Get your money back TODAY!!!!
6) if not sure about what to do, can always file police report first, at least you will have a better chance of recovering your money later if all is seized by CAD. Treat this like a car accident.
7) pls remember: the gold in your hand only covers your losses regarding the gold spot price component of your investment, not the whole sum!!! Don’t think for a second that because the gold will go up in price would cover your losses with Genneva. This scam was always about the 20% premium above gold. Get it back from them ASAP!
Reply
we are happy because we have successfully prevented MORE PEOPLE FROM BEING CONNED.
i don’t know about you… but i have a conscious. How would you feel if the person CONNED is your mother father sister brother or relatives?
still dare to bring out KARMA? Genneva and their agents, if proven to be a scam, WILL BURN IN HELL.
stop giving lame excuses like Genneva closed down because of complains. Only a moron will believe that.
Reply
And if you wanna see who runs genneva, download this http://www.mobilecomsolution.com/GENNEVA_GOLD.ppt
Reply
why i keep hear the bark….????
Reply
Hey,
Has Genneva closed down? I haven’t heard any news about that. I only heard that the Malaysian government is doing some investigation. Does anyone know the meaning of investigation?
I really don’t think so because you guys seems to celebrating as if Genneva is gone for good. Let’s not be too naive okay, it is good that the government is doing something, so lets not jump to conclusion…
Furthermore, it can only be considered as a scam if someone is being cheated using their scheme. So far, has anyone not received what was promised by Genneva? Anyone’s hard earned cash being cheated? If the answer is yes then please report this to the authority if not then please just wait for the investigation’s result to be out.
So please, Intheknow and GoldClubAsia, don’t act as if you guys were the heroes here. Nothing has been confirmed so please shut your mouth. Don’t say things as if everyone here in this forum are morons except both of you.
“we are happy because we have successfully prevented MORE PEOPLE FROM BEING CONNED”
Has anyone actually being conned before you guys joined the forum ? What do you mean that you prevented “MORE” people from being conned? Like I said, if someone is actually conned by Genneva, please voice up and let everyone knows that Genneva is indeed a scam and you will also speed up the investigation work of the authorities. I am sure everyone here will thank you for that esp Intheknow, but if no one has ever been conned by Genneva then please just let the authorities to carry out the investigation and STOP JUDGING !!
Reply
goof Reply:
July 23rd, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Why should they shut up – why should anyone shut up? What Genneva is doing is unethical.
Now that Malaysia has done a good job, i urge singaporeans to start opening up the investigation there via this link http://www.cad.gov.sg/serv/rep/Lodging+a+Commercial+Crime+Report.htm
You can lodge a report online
Reply
jazz Reply:
July 24th, 2009 at 9:58 am
Try and see if CAD bothers to investigate….!
Goof, why don’t you start reporting rather than instigating others to do so?
If Genneva in S’pore has fulfilled their “promises” to it’s clients, why would CAD investigate?
Unless you can prove that the gold that were given are no as pure as what they claimed it to be.
Reply
Intheknow;
“we are happy because we have successfully prevented MORE PEOPLE FROM BEING CONNED.”
MAYBE YOU WILL BE HAPPIER IF YOU PREVENT EVERYONE FROM GOING OUT SO NOBODY GET KILLED ON THE ROAD DUE TO THE DAILY ACCIDENTS
i don’t know about you… but i have a conscious. How would you feel if the person CONNED is your mother father sister brother or relatives?
YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO STOP YOUR RELATIVE FROM BEING ‘CONNED’ IF ITS A CON.(YOU ARE NOT QUILTY UNTIL PROVEN)
IN THE FIRST PLACE, ANY OF YOUR PEOPLE GOT CONNED IN GENNEVA?
WHO ARE YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE TO GO ROUND TELLING WHAT’S RIGHT AND WHAT’S CON?
’still dare to bring out KARMA? Genneva and their agents, if proven to be a scam, WILL BURN IN HELL.’
HE WHO CURSE WILL BE CURSED HIMSELF.
stop giving lame excuses like Genneva closed down because of complains. Only a moron will believe that.
NORMALLY, WHEN AN INVESTOR/CLIENT IS NOT PAID WHAT WAS PROMISED THEN THE RELEVANT AUTHORITIES WILL CHECK ON THE GENUINE COMPLAIN, BUT IF OTHERS WHO ARE WORRIED ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO THAT DO NOT KNOW GET CONNED ARE EITHER JEALOUS OR TOO BUSYBODY.
MAYBE U CAN ADVISE EVERYONE D FOLLOWING:
1) DON’T GO OUT, YOU GET KNOCK DOWN.
2) DON’T GO TO WORK, YOUR EMPLOYER WILL USE YOU.
3) DON’T EAT OUTSIDE, YOU MAY GET POISON.
4) DON’T MAKE SO MUCH MONEY, U GET ROBBED/KIDNAP
5) DON’T DO THIS AND DO THAT,ETC
SO IF NO MONEY/FOOD YOU HELP?
Reply
I couldn’t agree with Andrew more. if you guys choose to think con, sure you are conned- even without doing anything. Period.
If you are so clever, don’t buy anything coz’ can get conned too – the profit margin.
Reply
Etika Eams
23 Julai 2009,
11 pagi Kenyataan Akhbar Etika Emas Estet Sdn Bhd pada 22 Julai 2009
Pada 21 Julai 2009 (Selasa), Unit Penyiasatan Khas, Bank Negara Malaysia telah menjalankan siasatan ke atas syarikat Etika Emas Estet Sdn Bhd (EEESB) kerana terdapat beberapa syarikat berkaitan emas yang dipercayai menjalankan aktiviti pengambilan deposit secara haram.
EEESB telah memberikan kerjasama penuh kepada pihak BNM menjalankan siasatan. EEESB yakin dan percaya bahawa tiada sebarang aktiviti tidak sah telah dilakukan sepanjang ianya menjalankan perniagaan sejak Mei 2007. Kenyataan ini adalah berdasarkan kepada fakta-fakta berikut :
EEESB adalah sebuah syarikat “professional trader” yang menjual dan BUKAN melabur emas. Pelanggan menerima emas dari setiap pembelian. Semua urusniaga pembelian emas antara pelanggan dengan EEESB yang mana emas fizikal (dan bukan pelaburan emas) diserahkan kepada pelanggan berserta dengan resit pembelian, aku janji aqad, surat perjanjian dan sijil ketulenan. Pembelian cara ini adalah sama seperti pembelian di mana-mana kedai emas di Malaysia;
Pada 28/08/2008, EEESB melalui peguamnya telah menghantar surat rasmi berserta dokumen-dokumen penting seperti model perniagaan, analisis risiko, pengurusan risiko, maklumat pembekal, dan lain-lain maklumat penting kepada Jabatan Pentadbiran Pertukaran Asing (JPPA), Bank Negara Malaysia. Sebagai balasan, EEESB melalui peguamnya telah menerima satu surat yang ditandatangani oleh Pengarah JPPA Bank Negara Malaysia pada 11 September 2008 yang membenarkan EEESB untuk menjalankan aktiviti perdagangan emas fizikal termasuk membeli, meminjam, menjual, dan mengeksport, (Sila rujuk Lampiran A);
Walaupun surat dari JPPA telah dikeluarkan, EEESB telah mengambil langkah proaktif dengan menghantar surat rasmi berserta dokumen-dokumen penting seperti yang dinyatakan pada para 2 di atas kepada Jabatan Undang-Undang Bank Negara Malaysia untuk mendapatkan pandangan dan nasihat berkenaan model perniagaan yang dijalankan oleh Etika Emas. Ianya telah dihantar pada 14 November 2008. Walau bagaimanapun, EEESB tidak menerima sebarang jawapan dari Bank Negara Malaysia sehinggalah peguam syarikat menghantar sekali lagi dokumen-dokumen berkenaan pada Jabatan Undang-Undang Bank Negara Malaysia pada 10 Mac 2009. Sebagai balasan, EEESB melalui peguamnya telah menerima satu surat yang ditandatangani oleh Pengarah Jabatan Undang-Undang Bank Negara Malaysia pada 2 April 2009. Walau bagaimanapun, surat jawapan yang diberikan oleh Jabatan Undang-Undang BNM (Sila rujuk Lampiran B) tidak menyatakan secara khusus sama ada model perniagaan yang dijalankan oleh EEESB bercanggah dengan mana-mana akta di bawah seliaan BNM;
Berdasarkan senario dari para 1 hingga para 3, EEESB telah mengambil keputusan untuk menjalankan model perniagaan (sila rujuk lampiran C) di bawah naungan Koperasi Etika Emas Malaysia Berhad (KEEMB), sebuah entiti yang bernaung di bawah Kementerian Perdagangan Dalam Negeri, Koperasi dan Kepenggunaan (KPDNKK). Berdasarkan perkara 11 (1) di bawah Undang-Undang Kecil KEEMB, keanggotaan koperasi secara khusus adalah terbuka kepada semua pelanggan-pelanggan, pekerja-pekerja, ahli keluarga, serta subsidiari dan syarikat bersekutu Etika Emas Estet Sdn Bhd;
Berdasarkan kronologi di atas, EEESB telah menjalankan semua tanggungjawab sebagai warga korporat yang bertanggungjawab penuh kepada pelanggannya dan pihak berwajib dengan merujuk kepada semua syarat dan keperluan institusi, badan dan pihak yang terlibat di dalam perniagaan kami dan sehingga kini kesemua institusi termasuk BNM, melalui beberapa siri perjumpaaan dan nasihat telah dapat memantapkan modus operadi dan aktiviti perniagaan EEESB. Kami bekerjasama dan mengalukan siasatan rutin BNM ke atas peniaga-peniaga emas untuk memberi keyakinan kepada pelanggan, pembeli emas dan pihak awam supaya tiada perkara-perkara terlarang seperti “illegal deposit taking” dan “money laundering” berlaku.
Perlu ditekankan di sini bahawa EEESB hanya menjalankan urusan jual-beli emas fizikal 999.9. Kami membantu memberi khidmat nasihat kepada para pelanggan kami tentang kaedah menambahkan aset emas mereka dengan menggunakan institusi ar-rahnu yang berdaftar sebagai mekanisma. Bersama-sama ini, kami edarkan model perniagaan yang kami jalankan bersama rakan niaga dan institusi Ar-Rahnu untuk maklumat Tuan/Puan. (sila rujuk lampiran C);
Kami terpanggil untuk memberikan kenyataan akhbar ini supaya EEESB diperiksa secara profesional dengan mengambil kira semua inisiatif dan komitmen yang telah kami tunjukkan dari awal dan meminta agar findings yang tepat dikeluarkan oleh BNM. Tindakan BNM semalam diharap tidak akan menjejaskan kredibiliti dan keyakinan pelanggan terhadap EEESB.
Sekian, terima kasih
Mohd Amin Bin Supian
Presiden, Etika Emas Estet Sdn Bhd
Reply
tis is the massage from genneva website
IMPORTANT UPDATE: 21 JULY 2009
This serves to inform all our Valued Customers that Bank Negara Malaysia has commenced an investigation into GENNEVA Sdn Bhd on 21st July, 2009 under suspicion of conducting illegal deposit taking activities.
In view of the above investigation, our bank accounts have been frozen and our cash and Gold stocks have been sealed temporarily. Our director’s personal bank accounts have also been frozen.
GENNEVA is cooperating fully with Bank Negara Malaysia on the above investigations and we would like to assure all our Valued Customers on our commitment to protect their purchases with our company.
The Management would like to extend a big thank you to all Valued Customers for their kind understanding and we apologized for any inconveniences caused in relation to the above investigation.
We look forward to be of service to you again soon.
Meanwhile, please do not hesitate to contact us via email at genneva3@gmail.com should you need any clarifications on the above.
Please continue to visit our website http://www.genneva.com for news update.
Thank you
The Management
Reply
Yup, better rush to cash in your expensive gold bars today at their East Coast Condo address. Remember that in their contract with you, they will only honor the buyback if their physical office is open.
Everyone who is related to Genneva will have to go through the classic five stages of grieve:
1)Denial: NO, this is NOT a scam!
2)Anger: Oh, how dare you say I am part of a scam, I will kill you!
3)Bargaining: Please, please, just let me have my commission back…. I wont tell anyone anything….
4)Depression: Sh*t, what should I do? I will be ruined! (grabbing the beer bottle…. gulp….)
5)Acceptance: Ok, ok, it is a scam. Nevermind, I am not the starter. Many smart people have fallen for it. Life goes on…. oh, luckily I still have the gold bar, at least 80% of my investment is safe. (hugging the bar…)
Reply
Genneva malaysia says their bank accounts and assets have been frozen – these means that even if they wanted to cash out now, malaysian investors are stuck.
Singapore investors you still have a chance! Quick cash out before you are too late!
But i suspect that you also can’t- genneva will use the excuse that their malaysian HQ has all the money, etc etc.
Good luck to you but it’s a real shame you’ve fallen for genneva’s tricks.
Reply
GGI so many bark…”’
Reply
anyone who has taken the effort to keep him/herself updated of scams will recognise the similarity of events that have transpired.
EXACTLY from the part where someone first picks out something fishy (and get retorted by agents)…. right down to when the scheme is EXPOSED (and still encounter delaying/denial tactics by agents).
the next part would be either:
1. people in charge flee the country due to some ‘family emergency’ or ‘personal reasons’.
2. people in charge get invited for free black bean rice.
Just go google Sunshine empire.
Reply
damn, i found another website similar thing, thegoldlabel.com, exactly the same thing, not sure why i only saw ppl here talk other but not this one… too good to be true… but it is always depend on what the real ppl inside.
Reply
Genneva,
IMPORTANT UPDATES : 24th July 2009Dear agents and customers of Genneva Sdn Bhd
On behalf of the Company, we wish to thank you for your patience and support during these difficult times that the company is going through.
We wish to assure you that the management and staff of the Company are working round the clock to resolve the present situation.
The company has consulted its solicitors and after perusing the documents of the Company, our counsel is of the opinion that the Company has not committed any offence.
In this regard, our solicitors will be making a presentation to Bank Negara Malaysia.
As investigation is still on-going, the Company has been advised by its solicitors not to make any comment which may affect Bank Negara Malaysia’s investigation.
The Company has fully co-operated with Bank Negara Malaysia in the investigation and will continue to provide all assistance as and when required.
The Company wishes to emphasise that it is a genuine company trading in physical gold products and the Company pledges to honour all its commitments to its customers.
Please be informed that in light of the investigation, the Company will not be engaging in any business transaction. Nevertheless, the Company will continue to be in operation and our offices are opened as usual.
We appeal to all our agents and customers to continue to be patient until Bank Negara Malaysia completes its investigation.
Your kind understanding and support is greatly appreciated.
Thank you
The Management
Reply
goof Reply:
July 26th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
‘Please be informed that in light of the investigation, the Company will not be engaging in any business transaction. Nevertheless, the Company will continue to be in operation and our offices are opened as usual.
We appeal to all our agents and customers to continue to be patient until Bank Negara Malaysia completes its investigation.’
Adoi, does this mean that customers at this stage want to get their money back also cannot? What an excellent excuse!
Reply
LittleGold Reply:
July 26th, 2009 at 7:12 pm
I wonder how much you got invest in it? How long have u invested in? This few day, i’ve been digging news about the company, and nothing bad about it and no illegal issue mentioned. I hope the company will be alright, and agents and customers of their company will restore to normal. Its a normal procedure to investigate whether it is not a false biz… but on the other hand, i heard many bad things about this thegoldlabel.com… .. should be aware of it or just sit and wait.. ..
Reply
goof Reply:
July 26th, 2009 at 7:26 pm
actually it’s not normal that a company is being investigated for fraud.
i just hope that customers will be able to get back that 20% premium they were suckered into. couldn’t care less about genneva or its agents – just hope the authorities put them behind bars if it proves to be a scam so as to teach the industry a lesson.
Reply
LittleGold Reply:
July 26th, 2009 at 9:44 pm
I wouldn’t agree at all nor not accept the facts, but after a few look over the net and others comments, the GV have been operate for nearly years which exceed 1 and 2, which also mean, if we look and think closely, why now and why not starting year have such claim or scam? PPl not just from sg, or malaysia or other country, some already know well about the GV company, won’t you think that goof and someone here is actually aiming something, something what the ppl comment below. Investigation yes, its normal, but when you put out word like fraud with it, goof, its like you have something in target. I personally nearly believe this are fraud, but after digging some news, its seem, that, I think GV is not fraud and some others too. If goof, weren’t a customer nor agent, how in the world that he is so sure and hope authorities put them to something… I think goof, are confirmed not a GV’s agent nor customer.
Reply
2% Reply:
September 21st, 2009 at 5:39 pm
Benny so u r the management behind all this, if like what u said Genneva is so clean and good why dont u advertise in the Newspaper full page about ur company service……..if ur company is so profitable by giving out 2% to invester with 80%value of gold they invested and at least 1% of commission and overriding to agent and manager……u can just borrow money from the bank with ur gold as a collateral and give less than 1% interest to the bank……….go and do a proper business lah, why con people……
Reply
Qiyo, you are so obviously an agent or supporter of genneva that really, you have no credibility here. Genneva might be safe from the investigation simply because legally, they have worded all receipts and contracts as legit sale of overpriced gold bullion in which the customer is paying the 20% premium. Only verbally does genneva tell customers that they will get 2.5% returns, but even then it is structured as a ‘rebate’. basically it’s a long winded way to extract the 20% markup from customers. Goldclubasia is right – don’t be distracted by the gold bullion – genneva is really targeting that 20% from customers.
In any case, all this has been filed with the malaysian and singapore authorities – malaysia has acted already it’s a matter of time before CAD starts action.
No i don’t wish anyone to die or rot – but i do hope genneva is shut down, agents reprimanded for misleading customers, and customers get their 20% premium back. Having a ‘rice bowl’ from scamming unsuspecting and unsophisticated investors is unethical. Genneva agents should just go find a proper job.
This blog/forum is now #1 or #2 on google searches. it will serve to warn potential investors/morons on the genneva scam, and there is no doubt that some of the readers will write in to BNM/CAD to do proper investigations. What is there to fear if genneva proves legit?
Why wait before genneva scammers die and get punished in hell? Malaysian and Singapore customers should go do the right thing now – demand all your money back! If Genneva doesn’t honor it or comes up with some excuse to hold your money – make a police report and complain to the authorities before it is too late!
Don’t be a moron – read all the warning signs and exit before it is too late. When SHTF, 20% of your hard earned money earmarked for ‘investment’ will go poof!
Reply
Qiyo,
Don’t waste your time on these negative people. They are that type who like to see people fall/fail.
I decided on the rule. ‘See no evil, do no evil and hear no evil.’
If we spend this time on any other thing also got some benefits.
Good Luck!
Reply
You try so hard to rationalize and diffuse the obvious negativities that it’s bordering on the pathetic.
Let me try and give a parable of what genneva scheme is all about again:
Jack offers Jill an ‘investment’
Jack: “I’ll you a $100,000 Bank Negara bond certificate for $120,000. The face value of the certificate is $100,000, which can be redeemed anytime at Bank Negara for cash. This ‘investment scheme’ of mine is secure! It is backed by a government bond. Even if my company goes bust, you can still get back $100,000 in cash!”
“What’s more, i will pay you 2% per month in interest!”
Jill: “Ok, so will you give me a receipt or contract stating i paid $120k for the bonds with a guarantee buyback and 2% interest per month?”
Jack: “No. You pay $120,000 for $100k worth of bonds, my receipt will state ONLY that i sold you a $100k bond for $120k. But don’t worry, you have my gentleman’s agreement i will give you 2% a month in interest, but i will call it a ‘upfront rebate’ otherwise the govt will see i am up to no good and arrest me.”
Jill. who is not a moron, asks this:
Jill: “Jack, you mean to tell me you are selling me something worth $100k for $120k, and that i have to wait 10 months even before i breakeven my principal?”
Jack: “Yes. Don’t be chicken lah, no risk no gain”
Jill: “What happens if you close down? Will i get back the extra $20k i paid to you?”
Jack: “Nope, as we are a limited liability company working out from a condo. But dun worry, you still have the $100k you can go to Bank Negara and get cash. Too bad, you will lose that $20k”
Jill: “But you are under investigation now. How?”
Jack: “Dun worry, the govt cannot find anything. That is because i never gave you or my customers any document saying i promise you 2% interest – verbal only. As far as legalities go, i have sold to a bunch of suckers a $100k bond which they can go buy themselves at Maybank, for $120k, pocketing the extra $20k as profit.”
Jack:” And between you and me, this $20k i makan from customers, they will never breakeven until after 10 months. Its only after month 10 that i even begin to give them back profit from my own pocket. Until then, i take their $20k, and slowly give them back their OWN money. The more people that come into this scheme, the more money i can roll for 10 months! I how to lose?”
Jill: “Butoh”
Reply
hai groof!
people that who join GV thier money a lot , they also know what will happen one of the day! All investment like gamble., either win or lose!! But in this world poeple like u (hokkian say- “bo nui” ) is very “kia su” and only know to bark non stop & jealous people
.
Reply
EXACTLY THE SAME STORYLINE AS SUNSHINE EMPIRE!!!!
Reply
This forum is a sham.
The aim is to close down genneva.
Don’t be suckered to explain logic to you know who.
Reply
LittleGold Reply:
July 26th, 2009 at 9:52 pm
This is a blog comment and not forum. And I agree some of them here are aiming to do something to GV.
Some of them here are actually, just putting words that affect the company reputation and i don’t think they really know the all-thing. Unless they are an agent or customer of GV, otherwise, they are from others competitor and just someone passing through, got nothing to mention at home, and put a few word here mentioning this no good, and that is good. The real thing, me myself won’t dare to say “i know it all”, unless i have bought some from GV, but i didn’t.
PS: I do not agree to those that critisize others when we ourself not sure what is going on. Dig deeper before mention it out.
Reply
goof Reply:
July 26th, 2009 at 10:37 pm
you are spot on! very bored this weekend so came into here to be entertained. it’s like going to the zoo primate enclosure – tis quite fun to watch the baboons make silly noises and a foll of themselves
Reply
You genneva agents don’t have to waste your breath and distract the issue about ‘competitors’ and ‘agendas’.
all you have to do is to prove us wrong with facts, instead of threats or namecalling, or about kiasu/kiasism.
so what if genneva as you claim has been around for 1-2 years? even in madoff’s ponzi scheme the early subscribers in the initial years got their money back. it’s those that entered subsequently that got ripped off.
have a discourse with some substance please, otherwise, you really need to get a life and a proper job – stop messing with people’s savings
have facts and argue with conviction – otherwise how can anyone trust hard earned money to a bunch of hacks who cannot even string together a proper sentence, much less a discourse
Reply
just to share abit. i did invest in a company that was also raided by BNM. Its common in malaysia for company to get investigated. Anyways i still got my returns from that land investment. Thinking of puting some money into genneva’s gold after reading this blog/forum:).
Thanks guys for the insights!!
Reply
any agent from genneva here pls email me at xeyrbrat@yahoo.com.
Reply
P.S.: between you and me, if i were you, i would stop posting. the more you guys post and so obviously try to impersonate an independent voice, the more contrived and silly you make yourselves sound.
You ain’t doing no favors for Genneva, who is already knee deep in the brown stuff.
Reply
There are only two possible outcome:
a)Investigation shows that Genneva is a ponzi or illegal deposit operation (99.9% chance)
b)Genneva is legit (0.1% chance)
If a) is true, at least you ONLY lose 20% of your investments.
If b) is true, then I will start a company “Bonnanza” and promise you all 3% / month. All ex-Genneva clients and agents are welcome to join. I will offer 20 tiers commission sharing scheme and endless cashflow for your lifetime. My business advantage would be selling you silver bullion at 40% mark-up and offer you almost twice the return of Genneva.
Either way, Genneva is gone case.
Reply
Can someone here confirm that the genneva dot com main website is no longer available? when I type into the browser, it says that I do not have the permission to access their website etc…..
Is my IP address blocked by them or are they gone for good? Any Malaysian readers care to confirm? Thanks!
Reply
yup no longer working. tried using both a malaysian and US IP. The domain is registered to:
MR DAVID CHEONG david@davcheong.com +6.0126410195
Genneva Sdn Bhd
52A-1 JALAN KUCHAI MAJU 6, OFF JALAN KUCHAI LAMA
Kuala Lumpur,Wilayah Persekutuan,MY 58200
But the genneva.com.sg site is still up. That’s registered to:
GENNEVA PTE. LTD. (SGNIC-ORGGE305699)
Registered Address(line1): 400 Orchard Rd #05-27
Registered Address(line2): Orchard Towers Front Blk
Registered Address(line3):
Registered State:
Registered Country: SG
Registered Postalcode: 238875
Telephone: 67389883
Facsimile: 67389882
EMAIL: genneva@live.com
Reply
hi,
genneva website is ok. http://www.genneva.com.
no prob to login.
view the notices posted.
Reply
ys yee Reply:
July 28th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
i return gold on 21/7/09 , bbg date 22/7/09, so when i can collect my payment, can anyone answer me ?????
Reply
So far so good here. No prob viewing here. US
Reply
david@davcheong.com <– without the david@. .. .. its seems that this guy is a web blogger only by looking at his website http://www.davcheong.com .. strange.. how come his name was on the whois? I think he is a web designer for GV…
Reply
singapore cannot view:
“Forbidden
You don’t have permission to access / on this server.
Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.”
Reply
Raj and Littlegold, you guys are fibbing. Even from the US Google servers the site cannot be viewed. (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=en&tl=zh-CN&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.genneva.com%2F)
The Genneva site was consciously taken down by the administrators. As if you go to http://www.genneva.com/cpanel
It is still valid and can still be accessed.
There is no IP block of sorts – its just that the site has been taken down.
Reply
the website is working fine. no issue for me.
maybe you can try to use external proxy server to view the website again?
Reply
lioninvestor Reply:
July 28th, 2009 at 8:43 pm
Genneva.com site is not working at this moment but genneva.com.sg is still working.
Reply
Even from the US Google servers the site cannot be viewed. (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=en&tl=zh-CN&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.genneva.com%2F)
The Genneva site was consciously taken down by the administrators. As if you go to http://www.genneva.com/cpanel
It is still valid and can still be accessed.
There is no IP block of sorts – its just that the site has been taken down.
Reply
QiYo, you have done your homework before committing money. That is a good thing. I believe even when this thing goes belly up, you will not regret your investment decision.
Regarding the paid up capital: It is usually just a book entry. If your company’s auditor insists, you can still put in the money for one day, take it out the next again. Most of the time this type of money is earmarked as “due to the directors”. This makes it easier for the directors to take cash OUT of the operations.
I believe that the company owners are caught off-guard by the BNM investigation. Normally a ponzi only triggers investigation AFTER it busts. They are still in their growth phase, usually nothing can happen to such a scheme at such an early stage.
For you, as a genuine investor who believes what Genneva advertises, you have a good chance to get some of your money back. The key is to file police report early so you can be ahead of other creditors.
One thing is for sure, for such a well constructed ponzi, the directors have already their exit all covered before this thing went public. Right now they will just use anything to buy some more time.
Qiyo, I really hope that you will get all of your money back this time, I really do. The hope goes to all other victims of Genneva.
Reply
Well, these ’skeptics’ have at least lodged their concerns as a matter of public record. If something smells fishy, it’s probably because the salmon is starting to rot.
At least the arguments here hopefully will make people ask the right questions before they ‘invest’. No one can stop investors from being scammed – it is their choice and their money.
There’s a new post here by lion – http://www.lioninvestor.com/warren-buffett%e2%80%99s-top-3-advice-for-the-average-person-who-wants-to-grow-their-savings-and-keep-it-safe/
great read
Reply
Hi Opportunist,
Could you let us know your source for making these statements?
“in fact volume has increased considerably, no issues, nothing affected, no panics”
“I also understand that investigation in Malaysia is going on very smoothly and a positive outcome is on the cards”
Was wondering if you are making these statements to calm and delay investors from cashing out while they still can OR you really know something.
Thanks,
Intheknow
Reply
lioninvestor Reply:
July 30th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
Intheknow,
Opportunist has requested for me to remove his post and I have done so. You can ignore his comments.
Reply
I saw this investment from my facebook account and google some info regarding the this gold investment. i read the post from the beginning till the end and this is how i feel.
Beginning: Wow this looks legit with the eg of saying they buy a put option on gold price. (i’m a trader so this methods works well especially they are the one that have factory and produce gold)
Middle: sending email to MAS/CAD and malaysia for investigation.(how can they be a scam.. the methods works fine….)
Last: ok.. it is scam by wat the reply from Malaysia govt.
Now, a few things ponder on my head..
Why this MAY be a scam is because they never really buy a put option. if they buy, they wont make a loss.. why? because of holding power… so wat if they have 2 tonnes of gold? if go price soar like mad, they will be rich like nobody business. gold price soar high because of inflation.. then by the time, money will be worthless.. people will use gold to buy stuff instead of using cash….
correct me if i’m wrong…
Reply
# GoldClubAsiaon 16 Jul 2009 at 2:00 pm
http://watcher-watchout.blogspot.com/2009/03/scammed-out-of-our-slippers.html
Congrats! Genneva is listed as the latest scam!
Seriously, I did not even know anything about their 4 tiers overriding commission scheme. This is a deadly giveaway:
Quote:
“Those without money to invest can join in as sales person with 4 tiers overriding commission of up to 1%. My friend asked me to burrow money from my insurance policy to invest in Genneva gold after I told him I have no money to invest. He quitted after one week citing non transparency of the company as a reason.”
Btw, I am NOT a competitor of Genneva. I am a gold futures trader for a hedge fund. We are not even allowed to take in any clients with less than $1m networth.
goldclubasia.com is just my pet project over the last 2 years to give retail gold bullion investors some free educational material and a platform to sell/buy bullion from each other without middlemen. I have never earned a single cent from that website.
If I want to compete with Genneva, all I need to do is to set up a shell company and offer 2.1%/month return. Probably with 3 months all their victims would switch over to my ponzi scheme. hahaha…..
Unless i read wrong.. By the way, I’m not saying this is a scam. i juz wanted to tell u if Whats the only reason for this things to fail… since they hedge it by selling a put option, there’s no way they will lose money.. they will even make money…
they sell me at 1200. if price fall, they haf the option to sell at pre-determine price. if price rise, after buy back from investor, they r buying gold at a cheaper price…
to sum it up, 2 things.
gold price fall, they are selling at higher price in the option.
gold price rise, they are buying it at a lower price from the investor back.
brilliant idea… thats one of the stocks investment strategy.
adding to the advantage is that, they are the one that produce to gold..
Gold can be melted to make into jewellry.. thats how i thing this company works..
The only thing i’m worried is that, they did not actually do wat i say…
Reply
The investigation got triggered for one reason only: 2% per month return promised by their scheme.
Yes, it is possible for them to make money & stay in business forever if they just sold gold bullion at a premium with put option attached. But where does the 2% per month come from?
Selling/buying option is not risk free. There is also no option strategy in the world that will get your losses covered under all conditions without paying extra money for it.
For the layman, I can describe options best as insurance policies for your investments. If it does not get triggered, it expires. You LOSE the money for the premium paid for options. There is NO WAY you can get return on your option money in ALL situations.
What Genneva promised is simply impossible to deliver. It’s the 2% that kills it.
Reply
Regarding the options strategy, it do exist just that people did not knew it..
what if they already had the gold with them since few years back where got is abt $500-$700 they r gaining profit in anyway.. anyway i not here to debate.. coz it looks interesting and i might wanna invest with them.. the only prob i need to know is whether they mean wat i say.. by doing the hedging options…
Reply
Hi,
I hope everyone reading this forum understands the situation appropriately. As far as i know and understand, genneva is under investigation by bank negara and so is etika emas. The bank wants to see if everything is being done within the law.
It is not fair for people to keep on posting on the forums/ sites that it is a scam.. you are not guilty unless proven guilty yes, you can mention that you think the scheme is blah blah blah.. but don’t call it scam.. its the same as calling someone a murderer, eventhough he is still under investigation.
I do not mean to hurt anyone’s felling.. just sharing mine.
Well that’s the whole reason for forum’s right ..
Reply
hmm.. if i am a savvy investor.. i believe i would rather the scheme be proven GENUINE before I go in.
Reply
I actually wanted to invest with them but.. there’s a risk.. the Risk is they cant do a delivery of gold on the spot.. which means there’s time lapsed in between… any1 can clarify?
Reply
Hey Goldclubasia,
Take it easy and everyone, let’s all focus on the big picture, the world is in the “shit hole”, sorry pardon my French… I am going to keep this simple, everyone has their own reasons\agenda for writing their comments here in this forum, and I am sure “Goldclubasia” or a.k.a “GB5000″ reason u have that nick is obviously u are super bullish on Gold, and reading your posts obviously I gather you are as well, also u sell stuff on your website silver and gold(hopefully u make a profit, and I am pretty sure you do
obviously this is at your really really free time coz I assume you are very bz working with 50 million dollar funds 
I mean sure, you are sophisticated investor and all most of us aren’t so, and buying physical metals at 7.5% ~ 8% above spot from uob or through your site may not be for everyone or every time, btw I have bought from UOB as well before. Also, I read some where, is there another place/site for buying n selling gold at fair spreads, someone who knows please help answer?
To the rests… Here’s my take on Geneva, selling options, puts all costs money, genneva’s model will not work over time because it is mathematically impossible! And this I agree with GB5K. However, because their base is “Gold” this really has a good chance, let me explain… moving forward with the continued price increase, more biz, means bigger base(more gold bought at a lower price) thus facilitating continue expansion, you dun really need to be too smart to organize something you know that is going up to effectively scale in/dollar cost average into the position over time, and with extra money keep buying into the asset, over time your base would get bigger… this would quite easily cover the costs of the 2% and commissions and please note this is my view only, this would probably work for at least the next 2~3 years minimum, longer if it goes up to 5000 as our friend GB5k has predicted over the long haul
If that happens this would last very much longer! Dun forget gold has been appreciating average 25% a year for the last 5 years alone.
Btw, understanding the inherent risks, I am transacting with Genneva for the time being
and at the same time for GB5000 I have bought stuff from your site as well 
Reply
Intheknow Reply:
August 3rd, 2009 at 9:38 am
so aren’t you suggesting this is a ponzi as well?
everything goes well as long as the underlying gold’s price goes up generally and the fund has enough new money to cover the 2% and commissions?
what happens when gold crashes and investors withdraw?
MADOFF right? that’s what happened… the 2008 financial meltdown caused investors to get out of MADOFF and he didn’t have the funds to pay them back.
Reply
dws Reply:
August 3rd, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Well… let’s take stock on all things, since we are in this fiat monetary system, which is deeply entrenched in credit/interests/debt at least in the current known world unless you are in some far off location in Siberia or in the deep jungle in the amazon, no internet, no modern convenience then this does not really apply. Mathematically it is also impossible to support our current fiat system, interest over interest, over time it cannot be sustained indefinitely, it will be reset, whether willingly or forcefully, based on history I think the 2nd option is quite common
Well, I am betting long gold at least the next 2 ~ 3 years minimum and also not all your eggs in Genneva or a company such as Genneva, again depending on your risk tolerance, buy from UOB if you want good assurance, buy from secondary if you dun want to pay the 7~8% and buy from Genneva sort of companies to have some recurring income on the side. So diversify!! And you are correct if the the price does crash substainally in $ terms I dun see how Genneva can pay back all the gold at the Buy Back gurantee on the month before. However then again I dun think that is gonna happen anytime soon
Again, as like everything do your own dilligence and count the costs!
Reply
at the end of the day, only an idiot and complete moron would pay 20% more than what he could get easily at UOB, wait 10 months to get his own 20% paid back to him slowly, and then hope that he starts getting paid 2% per month by a small limited liability company with zero fiscal mgmt credibility, registered to a condo, founded in malaysia, run out of orchard towers, and supported by a bunch of hacks who cannot speak properly, are obviously unsophisticated in financial knowledge, and try to smoke their way through arguments.
if you are such a moron after all the warnings from the start to end of this forum, please go ahead with your genneva investment. you deserve to be scammed and deserved no sympathy for your stupidity in the face of the obvious.
Reply
Goofy,
Pls mind your language, we invests where we like and take our own risk. But I don’t think we should be called idiot or complete maroon for that.
I wonder (in your language,) what you called those who bought the 999 gold from retail outlets that sell 20% more and don’t give anything back?
I hope those who wish to give their advice, do it more professional rather than calling all kind of names.
At the same time, I wonder you call all those who don’t buy from you (so called ‘experts’) Idiots and morons also.
Reply
goofy Reply:
August 3rd, 2009 at 11:56 pm
well, nobody who is sane buys gold bullion at 20% markup from jewellery shops for investments – you guys use it as a ruse to ‘justify’ how fairly priced your gold bullion is when it is not. gold prices at jewellery/pawn shops are for jewellery (you know, rings necklaces bracelets and stuff like that)
gold bullion are coins and bars meant for investment, and is purchased at a 20-25% discount to pawn/jewellery association/shop pricing at UOB in KL and in Singapore. anyone can walk into the KL UOB, ask the counter girl, and she will show you Australian Nuggets, American Eagles, etc etc of different designs and different years, and choose the one you want. then she prints out and issues an official receipt with the bank header in gold paper, which states that UOB will honor all buybacks at prevailing market price – which is published daily and on the international markets.
stop deceiving people with your distractions and sleight of hand.
buy what from me? i don’t sell gold. and yes, i call those who buy from you/genneva idiots and morons – and i’m being nice tonight.
Reply
goofy Reply:
August 4th, 2009 at 12:04 am
“Goofy,
Pls mind your language, we invests where we like and take our own risk. But I don’t think we should be called idiot or complete maroon for that.”
You, qiyo and all the other genneva agents keep trying to convince people to ‘take your own risk’; ‘invest where we like’; ‘must have courage to get returns’.
That’s silly. It’s like putting a bottle of cyanide in front of you. All the warning labels are there, your friends and family standing in front of you saying ‘dun drink you will die’, govt puts out a warning saying ‘health warning: drink cyanide will sure die.’
Then you have you unethical tricksters calling out: ‘take your own risk! no pain no gain! you will get returns! have courage!’
IF the fella ignores all the warnings and still drinks – then he is a moron. And relative to this, you guys are no better than rats
Reply
and for god’s sake – stop living off the gullibility of unsophisticated ‘investors’ and pulling fast ones. Get a proper job. Do your parents even know the potential damage you’re causing innocent retirees savings? Utter disappointments
Reply
We won’t want to waste our breath on the Geneva agents here. Who in the right sense of mind would still tell investors it is safe to invest in Geneva when the firm is currently under investigation by the authorities. Isn’t it obvious they are the owners and cronies of Geneva as they alone stand to gain from the investors’ loss !
And I am being nice when I said cronies, someone else would have said fraudsters and crooks !! And yes, one more thing, these cronies should go get a life instead of prowling around this forum endlessly and laying baits to hook innocent victims.
Reply
goofy Reply:
August 4th, 2009 at 1:09 am
soh, it’s alright. as long as they cannot defend themselves properly, and as long as posts continue here, this forum will continue to rank high on Google searches for anything ‘genneva’. It does help to prevent them from suckering more victims to their scheme, as it has helped one of me mates from making a wrong choice with these genneva people.
besides, their antics are quite entertaining – a quick study in how the uneducated try and hoodwink the gullible.
Reply
lol. little boy, your challenge is meaningless. You have to get a proper education and some real job experience first before you can even start to comprehend what myself and others like GCA, ITK etc are trying to say.
But do refer to my previous post: this to me is highly entertaining – like watching baboons in a zoo blabbering nonsense in the hope of distracting and stealing another baboons bananas.
But i must agree with Soh, it is getting rather tiresome hearing you monkeys spouting the same misdirecting, deceiving rubbish without you daring to directly address the issues and misgivings brought up by many.
Thus, instead of daring others in another attempt to mislead and downplay your unethical behaviour, why don’t you dare yourself to walk the straight path and like many others, get a proper job. You guys are starting to sound really pathethic and desperate, but do keep up the replies – one never knows what baboons will do next and i do wish to be entertained so.
Reply
you are right, i do think you are small kids.
well, if you have ‘thought’ about things 100 times better, then start directly addressing and dispelling the issues addressed here by many many others besides me.
it does gladden me that at times, you do have occasional flashes of intelligence. keep it up, you’re actually starting to sound witty!
Reply
Goofy your name is so cute and adorable
I hope that you are not so cute and adorable when it comes to putting your hard earn in investing? 
Where in world you do not take calculated risk(a.k.a. count the costs) on a biz venture, investments and/or transactions hoping for a gain later, nothing is 100% make money, you tell me now what you have that is 100% safe and sure make money I have ready investors waiting to jump in now!!
Its always how much $$ u lose as compared to how much money you make; ask GB5k or any sophiscated investor/trader they do do this on a daily basis, friend nothing 100% sure, in fact if someone says that they are 100% sure make $$$, advise run the other way!
And ask any biz man, some biz ventures lose money and others make, I guess the ones that are profitable make more than they lose. Are you the sort that talks alot but when it comes down to it, as in putting your $$$ where your mouth is maybe you don’t? I am not sure coz I don’t know but you sure display some tendencies
So for Genneva, I am just keeping it simple for you
20% markup, 2 % monthly, asset appreciating over time, every month you get the 2% your risk also reduces. So in terms of biz setting, I am risking 20% to get a 2% monthly and over a longer haul the asset is appreciating. I think its worth the risk 
what do you think Goofy? Think about it other people have risked all their hard earn savings on more establish names and have gotten nothing back, hopefully this is still fresh in your memory, if not, just ask and will be happy to throw some names at you? Again, let me very clear I like “Gold” my view is fully skewed to the long term benefits of Gold. Genneva is just one of the many of the instruments out there.
Reply
One more thing… I just saw this but for the benefit of all…
“limited liability company with zero fiscal mgmt credibility, registered to a condo, founded in malaysia, run out of orchard towers, and supported by a bunch of hacks who cannot speak properly, are obviously unsophisticated in financial knowledge, and try to smoke their way through arguments.”
So people who lost so much money in supposely simple but were actually complex and highly risky instruments were supposely from financially sound insitutions, 100% fiscal mgmt credibility, good address location, sophiscated financial knowledge, speak very well, dress in suits; I guess you rather be con by them?
Reply
goofy Reply:
August 4th, 2009 at 11:28 am
Just like in your case, those investors of structured products were mislead. If genneva runs away and closes, no one can come after them. All they need to do is declare bankruptcy or just close the company.
BUT because the banks that sold structured products are proper institutions, governments can and have put in place refund mechanisms in HK and in Singapore, and they can be sued civilly in the courts as they are not fly-by-night operators like genneva.
thus, one can always get the authorities and the courts to go after the banks, one can never go after fly-by-night operators that will just disappear when things go bad
Reply
Again, you try to confuse the issue. The issue is not on whether gold is going up or down – it is the 20% markup you charge people for the same gold bullion that people can buy from UOB KL at 20% less than what you charge. Why would an investor pay:
- 20% profit to a company under investigation for nothing
- wait 10 months even before breakeven of this 20%
- then only maybe start getting 2% returns
Your genneva scheme is not a business opportunity/venture, is not an investment, is not fund management – it is simply a confidence scheme cooked up to justify selling a common product at 20% more expensive than market rates, and holding this money for about a year. The only difference is that you are using gold as an excuse to legitimize your operations when really, people can get that themselves at UOB KL anytime.
Reply
Guys… cut the crap and stop debating…
1st: what is investment?
from what i know, investment means taking a part of risk to generate some returns.. higher risk, higher returns, lower risk,lower returns.
2nd: thats the big deal of marking up 20%.. imagine you din even know know the product real value. but u are assured a net 2% monthly… thats an investment too…
3rd: back by goverment so what? look at our pinacle notes, madoff. they are back by govt. Banks oso will fall…
So ultimately, all investment is consider a good investment until when u reap the returns… and depends on your risk apetite..
Dont keep call people scam/ponzi/pyramid… if it is, why are people earning returns from it.. same like buying stocks or property.. had been booming for 10 years and suddenly a downfall.. bubble burst… you call it a scam??? everything comes with a Risk.. and this RIsk is up to each individual to judge against your apetite to the market…
Reply
Poor Genneva…. lots of wolves trying to kill it !!!
Reply
K, great now we can have sort of a friendly discussion here… well I think your opinions are generally fair, those were the same ones that I had when 1st started out as well… Genneva has a markup of about 20%(about 7% of that is GST in Singapore) I mean their biz model is not too complicated, the idea is to buy gold at lower prices using the $$ they make from the spread; and increase their gold holdings and perpetual this… If you look at their model they are like Pawn shops but doing it reversely, instead of pple pawning their gold at for around 78 ~ 80% for the market price of gold on the day of transaction and are charged I think 1% ~ 2% monthly interest. Having more gold overtime benefits the company as gold can always be converted to cash and vice versa unless of course you are holding the Zimbawa dollar
Also, if you need to raise cash for this biz you can also pawn your gold and raise about 80% of its fair value at any given time, and later when Gold prices increases you can later sell it but I am hedge earlier at a lower price inspite of paying that 1% ~2% monthly interests.
So in the nutshell you are investing in their gold trading biz and they are paying you interests on that upfront cash that u have vested. The technical term they use is monthly discount because Genneva is not an investment company.
Btw, I am fully aware that of the risks, and accept them, please do not mistake me for one that does not, I thought I made myself quite clear, aparently not sufficient enough?? Anyway, I have been up to the KL office before and I understand that the reason they are being investigated is because of some illegal deposit taking as they may be running a plan whereby the customers do not actually take stock of the physical gold to gain better returns? I know definitely in Singapore Genneva does not run a similar program, its always cash for gold. Again, I would be weary of situations whereby u get better returns without holding gold as collateral. Someone whose in the know please elaborate on this matter??
Btw, on to legal matters, even if you go through the court systems, it will take years before a resolution comes in, whereby in hour of your need you need the cash and it is not there? Also, I can repay all the money to you but in monthly installments for 30 years, where does leave you, I think the word that you are left with is “Screwed”. Appearance of what is True maynot be necessarily be true.
Reply
goofy Reply:
August 4th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
Finally, an argument that is balanced and makes sense!
Reply
dws Reply:
August 4th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
I am going to take that as a compliment, thank you
Reply
goofy Reply:
August 4th, 2009 at 6:18 pm
It is. Much better than some of the drivel perpetuated by the other baboons. However, i do hope you will attempt to refute the following:
“Again, you try to confuse the issue. The issue is not on whether gold is going up or down – it is the 20% markup you charge people for the same gold bullion that people can buy from UOB KL at 20% less than what you charge. Why would an investor pay:
- 20% profit to a company under investigation for nothing
- wait 10 months even before breakeven of this 20%
- then only maybe start getting 2% returns
Your genneva scheme is not a business opportunity/venture, is not an investment, is not fund management – it is simply a confidence scheme cooked up to justify selling a common product at 20% more expensive than market rates, and holding this money for about a year. The only difference is that you are using gold as an excuse to legitimize your operations when really, people can get that themselves at UOB KL anytime.”
Thanks
Reply
i think this post from goofy summarises Genneva very well:
Again, you try to confuse the issue. The issue is not on whether gold is going up or down – it is the 20% markup you charge people for the same gold bullion that people can buy from UOB KL at 20% less than what you charge. Why would an investor pay:
- 20% profit to a company under investigation for nothing
- wait 10 months even before breakeven of this 20%
- then only maybe start getting 2% returns
Your genneva scheme is not a business opportunity/venture, is not an investment, is not fund management – it is simply a confidence scheme cooked up to justify selling a common product at 20% more expensive than market rates, and holding this money for about a year. The only difference is that you are using gold as an excuse to legitimize your operations when really, people can get that themselves at UOB KL anytime.
Reply
K, I am game, let’s do this…
I am going to be as CLEAR as possible for the sake of InTheknow and Goofy so here goes…
Q1- 20% profit to a company under investigation for nothing
Ans:
Again, I cannot speak for Malaysia but I think I can safely speak for Singapore. We are not under investigation here in Singapore. And if we continually show that we are above board with all our transactions; transparent and honest in all our dealings we should be alright. Also, I understand each invoice that is generated now, is fully computerized and meets with the current accounting standards. One more thing my math is not really good, so please don’t send me email if its off by 1 or 2%, coz I know some of you are Math professors and all, if you do don’t expect and answer from me. I am only going to deliver the key messages.
Since we are comparing with UOB so let’s be specific in this case, UOB Singapore also charges 7% GST plus some admin charge over let’s use the 100g PAMP Swiss Gold bar at today’s price(check UOB website) to keep this as current as possible, UOB site has a sell price of 4824.63 and a buy price of 4403; a spread of about 9%~10% in this case. And if you buy from Genneva, you would buy it for about 20% (15% above spot, plus 7% GST – 2% discount). So the difference between UOB and Genneva is about 10%; so if we were to buy the same 100g gold bar from UOB or Genneva the difference is about 10%, it is 20% above spot but only 10% above UOB’s sell price. Btw, you seem like a smart fella but maybe not very familiar or experience with the Gold biz. If you can get me gold at spot, shall we not do biz today? In fact physical gold traders will be calling you!!! So my question to you now is since it is only 10% above UOB’s sell price is Genneva worth the risk? If Yes or No, tell us why? Now is time to put your $$$ where your mouth is
And dun give me a stupid answer like I want no risk coz and all gain, sorry I am not being rude, but direct.
Q2
- wait 10 months even before breakeven of this 20%
In this case if you comparing with UOB than it is only 5 months
Q3
- then only maybe start getting 2% returns
Let me refine your question I think you meant to ask if after the 5months then you will start making the 2% YES, therefore you need to count the costs, No Guts No Glory man!
From what I read so far, obviously you do not understand the full benefits of Gold yet, my advice to you as why dun you guys read more about Gold and understand its value in history, now and in the time to come. I know it is a separate thing and all but I thing you guys should at least know something about if you are going to pay good money for it dun you think? Maybe GB5k can give you guys a personal tutorial on this topic?
As far as I know Genneva has never proclaimed itself as mutual fund or some investment company and I dun think we want o be one either, to me it is only but a Gold Trading company giving me a discount on the gold I purchase on a monthly basis. And if you actually understood the value of Gold, I would say what a good excuse Genneva is using, Gold to legitimize their biz model
Different perspectives my friend.
Also, one additional thing since it seems you both are quite experience and savy biz people. Have you guys walk the ground, feel the gold, talk to the people involved, or is these all kind of hallucinations up in your mind that is churning based on hearsay and past bad experiences etc.. Or is this substantiated by some hardcore facts, if so please present them? As to how they do their biz I have already mentioned before see my earlier posts if not I think some have posted earlier as well.
One question for InTheKnow, sorry I must ask this… I hope you dun find this slightly offensive but what are you in the know for?
Reply
Intheknow Reply:
August 4th, 2009 at 11:49 pm
i started using this nick when people were panicking about Merrill Lynch Jubilee Series 8 notes. i considered myself in the know as I have a great deal of expertise dealing with structured products.
i believe i earned the right to continue to use this nickname as i successfully and correctly advised a number of investors not to early redeem their notes at a loss. In current market situation, it is very unlikely for Bank of America and Merrill Lynch to default.
i am also confident that my nick would apply appropriately in Genneva Gold’s situation as i am in the know of possible scams.
Reply
lioninvestor Reply:
August 5th, 2009 at 8:53 am
DWS,
Intheknow has been a long-time poster in this site who has selflessly spent his time here to share his expertise on structured products and other investment stuff.
Reply
goofy Reply:
August 5th, 2009 at 12:23 am
dws you need not have to preach to me about the value of gold – you were already way out of my league when u started posting in gca. if genneva sells bullion at 20% above spot incl gst, that changes dynamics somewhat, but it then calls into qn the viability of promising 2% returns pm on principal – that is almost 20% per month return on your retained monies of 10%, or 240% per annum on retained earnings.
could you kindly walk thru with us the mechanism of how an investor would hypothetically invest 1oz ($1000k spot) worth, for 12 mths?
Reply
2% Reply:
September 21st, 2009 at 5:16 pm
the way u talk make me feel that Genneva is a damn stupid company that trying to do charity by giving out 80 to 90% physical gold for anyone that invest money in their “conpany” and give out 2% to 3% return to that investor and 0.7% commission to the agent and around 0.3% overriding to the manager and they got to pay rental employ staff, give refreshment and as a “conpany” profit is a must……if base on 5% a month and compounded for a year it will be almost 80% return for this investment, even 4% will be almost 60% a year……i think we should vote the Genneva boss to be our Finance Minister
Reply
Easy to destroy…. hard to build……
time to give it a rest and see if Genneva can survive the many evil curses. No amount of arguments is going to change the minds of anti-Genneva agents.
Reply
To all, kindly refrain from name calling and getting personal in your replies. We are here to discuss about the issue, and not about the people who are posting here.
Whether agents or not, you are all welcome to post here. Readers can read both sides of the stories and make their own informed decision.
Reply
jazz Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 10:23 am
Agreed! That’s how healthy discussions should be.
Base on facts and not name-callings.
Reply
Police_X Reply:
May 17th, 2010 at 11:09 pm
Dear LionInvestor,
Thank you for providing this platform for discussion on issues of Genneva Gold and The Gold Label.
I personally think that it is time to close these two topics in Forum. The discussion over the gold issues is going nowhere but forumers making use of it attacking each other, from bad to worst. There were only a few genuine posts from the authorities themselves, e.g. Genneva-gold, others are tom, dick and harry; posting comments with questionable facts, could be rumours or throwing ’smoke screen’ to create confusion… how many of them were genuinely constructive?
Just my 2cts worth comments / suggestion.
Rgds.
Reply
lioninvestor Reply:
May 18th, 2010 at 1:51 am
Hi Police_x,
Thanks for the suggestion. I will continue to monitor and see how it goes.
Reply
I agree, I am way out of your league
Anway I am going to do my part to keep this discussion as civic as possible.
As to your qn on “could you kindly walk thru with us the mechanism of how an investor would hypothetically invest 1oz ($1000k spot) worth, for 12 mths?”
I thought this process for this was already mentioned and well documented earlier in this thread, if there is please direct Goofy, if not someone can help follow up?
Its gonna be crazy for me for the next few days I will try to follow up at the tail end of this week, if not later. Sorry.
Reply
lol. a faux pas it was not
Reply
latest update about Genneva Singapore:
They are in a cash crunch now. There is likely a bank run on them right now. One agent just mass sms a “special national day offer”
They are now offering 2.5% per month for August!!!
This usually happens when a ponzi about to collapse.
The sudden increase of interest rate by 25% overnight is a great leading indicator for their imminent collapse.
Perhaps in 6 weeks they will offer “Hari Raya Puasa Special 5%”.
Reply
jazz Reply:
August 10th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
The 2.5% is only for 4 days (11-14 Aug) and not for the whole month of August.
Reply
bank run is too kind a term to use.
fraud/scam run is more like it.
Reply
anyone remembered Swisscash ? Perhaps anyone who wants to invest in such product can do a google on swisscash before making such a move.
Reply
jazz Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 10:29 am
How to equate with Swisscash. Totally different and totally unfair.
You get nothing from Swisscash, just an e-account with e-dollars. Nothing concrete.
Reply
goofy Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Same crap but in different clothing. either way, it still smells fishy
Reply
jazz Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 10:53 pm
Time will tell…!
Reply
你們好, 我們和金利華之間的黄金買賣交易向來都很滿意, 我們也向我國, 國家銀行了解我們是不是受害者, 有關當局不能肯定，只能說正在調查. 同時也向首相署投訴局报告希望有關政府部門的辦事效力尽早處理此事．
朋友我知道人家買黄金一次就是百萬, 你買了多少? 不明白没和金利華有生意交易又不了解金利華生意的人却如此緊張大反金利華是為了什麼？ 就是給你們向有關當局投訴也是莫各其妙．
新加坡朋友如果真的這麼關心請帮忙，提供金利華生意在新加坡是不是合法，如果合法，我們會考慮向貴國金利華買黄金．謝謝！
黄金的可愛之處：
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im7W1AnDmgA
謝謝國家銀行的調查
BNMTELELINK (Customer Service Call Centre)
Tel: 1-300-88-5465
Fax: 03-21741515
Email: bnmtelelink@bnm.gov.my
BNMLINK (Customer Service Walk-In-Centre)
Block D, Bank Negara Malaysia ,
Jalan Dato’ Onn, 50480, Kuala Lumpur
(Business hours: Monday-Friday, 9.00 am – 5.00 pm)
Reply
What is the status now? Can i sell back the golds to any goldsmith shops? I need the money now. When the Genneva will sit down and discuss with Bank Negara Malaysia to solve the public money who had invested with you. Please keep updates the situation through media or sms so that the investors will be confident always with you.
Reply
EatGoldSleepGold Reply:
August 24th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
Heard the survey is done, meanwhile the sales illustration and organisation need to be reconstructed.
New package is coming up… Just be patient and see.
Good Day!!!
Reply
Goto Genneva singapore website……ooops*
“Page not found
The page you are looking for might have been removed,
had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable. “
Reply
jazz Reply:
August 16th, 2009 at 10:44 pm
On your advice, I did.
The website is still there!
Probably it is your service provider la. . . .!
Reply
A fool is born a minute.
If i can fool the American public for over 40years to the tune of USD65bil, whats with these small fries here?
Reply
agents also disppeared from this forum.
Reply
Soh Reply:
August 14th, 2009 at 11:10 pm
That is a very polite way of saying it.
I bet the agents from this forum are currently running away from the investors and authorities (for all their worth in fake gold) !! LOL.
Anyway they had provided cheap entertainment here for us, some of the comments they spouted were so incredible, one can’t help but laugh at the stupidity of their arguments !
Reply
Haih …
Its been awhile since I last came to this forum …
Same old sh*t .. same old debate .. same old people .. Anything new other than judging and pointing fingers without having any prove or facts to back you guys up?
So after much discussion, whats the conclusion ?
Is it proven that Genneva is indeed a scam ? Has Genneva break the law ? Is it closed down by the government already ? What is the actual status ? From what I see from here … It seems like we actually have a conclusion – Genneva is a SCAM !!
So what if they are actually giving discount ? I am doing business myself and that is a part of marketing. I heard news that Jaya Jusco, Giant, Tesco, Carrefour and all other hypermarkets and 90% of all retail outlets is closing down by the end of the year because the Chinese New Year Mega Sale is coming … Isn’t that what you guys were saying ? Giving discount = ponzi about to collapse, scam bla bla bla …
Come on guys .. lets wait for the final outcome and stop acting like a bunch of aunties !! Well I won’t be coming to this forum for some time
So you guys can curse, spread rumours and gossip all you want .. lastly, I think lioninvestor should prevent users under 7 years old from posting in this forum … why let adults with a 7 year old attitude post in this forum? You know who you are … GROW UP !!
Reply
DeadBecauseOfRumours Reply:
August 17th, 2009 at 10:21 pm
Regardless of what you say ….. it will be branded a scam or you will be branded a genneva agent or a mlm promoter. Save your breath and stop promoting this nlog.
Reply
I am back goofy
u miss me? Anyway I agree Genneva is small fry in the whole money game, why dun we raise stakes a bit… we focusing on small fries in this discussion lets raise it to higher level and let’s call it as it is… everyone wants to make money some body loses money, the world is not fair as somebody needs to lose so that someone makes; the pie is only so big. This is biz, no more no less but there is a huge unfair advantage…
The biggest players of the money game, known fact are governments/banks, as they control the supply of it, by lowering/increasing interest rates by the printing of it. The US government which is currently printing money(a.k.a. quantitative easing) to pay for its debts and we all know that it is not backed by anything but a promise, is that a scam? Isn’t that kinda running the largest ponzi scheme on the planet? Why, coz they are the reserve currency of world, they have a open credit line by borrowing against their currency through willingly countries/banks to support their debt, in the process it loses its purchasing power over time, through this borrowing is required to pay off the previous debts/interest/payments (sound familiar?) So, it usually benefits the ones that use this newly printed money 1st (Again does this not sound familiar
) Next question, to ask is normally who gets this money 1st?
Isn’t this also like stealing from John to give to Tom? Some people call it indirect taxation, through the rising of prices, what has change is not so much the goods and services but the increase in the supply of money thus you have more money chasing the same level of goods and services therefore and increase in prices, natural conclusion. In schools we are almost always taught of supply and demand for everything else but almost never when it relates to utility of money, I guess those same laws apply?
Just let history be your guide so many examples, Japanese banana money, Wiemar Germany just to name a few… Who would this affect? this would affect all, coz everyone, needs to eat, sleep and drink but it would always affect the poor and needy more, as they have to content with lesser pay and higher costs! What Madoff did, by comparison is a drop of water in the ocean, no doubt it was wrong nonetheless, it mainly messed up the rich, coz I dun think Madoff was interested in savings accounts less than $10k 
Since you are such good at calling scams like me ask you this now, whether you have power to change it or not is a separate matter, is this a scam? Please be honest and courageous since you are honest and courageous about “small fry” companies like Genneva? If you say this is not a scam, give me specific reasons and examples, use mathematics, science, history to prove , whatever to substantiate your stand? In fact, maybe use mathematics, calculate their debt, divide by each man, woman and child and see how much the owe now and the future? Can the US even support the interests payments alone now(does this not sound familiar to you again?
) Please use the same rules that you would you use to judge Genneva and apply it in this case?
Why is this important? Isn’t this missing the boat you may ask? Good questions, but I will answer these once you answer my question above?
I remember a famous quote by a Rothschild goes something like this, “I care not the laws of the land as long as I have control over the issuance and supply of money I can change the laws.” How very true indeed, very sad
Reply
dws, what you are saying is totally irrelevant to our discussion on Genneva Gold.
Reply
Why is it irrelevant? Since we are identifying scams, should not we look at all things financial especially if it vesting our hard earn money?? Especially if it has a wider reach and affects, don’t you think? Like I said earlier answer my question above and I will tell you why? Maybe you can answer on behalf of Goofy??
Reply
this is the sort of discussion that MLM people always use.
Try to distract the point by bringing up non-relevant issues.
For example, when we ask them about risk of the company, they bring up things like we are young should take risk, or don’t worry we have many clients.
Totally not relevant. So I am still not going to answer for goofy.
Reply
Soh Reply:
August 17th, 2009 at 9:43 pm
It is cos they can’t hide the truth that Geneva is a scam, they ran out of bullets ! So they try to divert attention by posting nonsensical stuff, and making personal attacks, which only reflects their low IQ and EQ !
Reply
dws Reply:
August 17th, 2009 at 11:40 pm
Soh I am not even going waste time you… at least Goofy has some brains; you I think this material may be beyond you, maybe before you open your mouth you should think first, process the info SLOWLY… then speak, wait… maybe not, for you spend more time thinking and talk less
Reply
dws Reply:
August 17th, 2009 at 11:46 pm
“Irrelevant” what is that?? Sounds like you are limiting the boundaries, discussions are meant to expand the boundaries, too bad…
Not stepping up to the the plate; I guess Goofy you have to come through man, I thought maybe In-The-Know might step up, but its all you now…
Reply
Soh Reply:
August 20th, 2009 at 11:10 pm
dws – your comments keep repeating the same stupid arguments, nothing new at all ! And this further validates your low IQ and EQ !! LOL
Reply
dws Reply:
September 4th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Hey, how many times must I tell you… for you, you need to talk less and think more, throw in one more, which is listening as well… Perfect balance for you dun you think?? You see for you, especially YOU should listen SLOWLY… dun TALK, and thereafter listen again more carefully, then process the info but take your time, take as much time as required to think it through.
Maybe you actually have some IQ, then tell me in specific details my above statements are untrue and that they make no sense at all? I would gladly have an interesting discussion with you? So easy to just say they are stupid arguments, and nothing new at all (based on your own words) so you actually know what I am talking about so I guess it would be easy for you refute my position?
I dun see the smarter ones like “In-The-Know” or “Goofy” trying to answer or refute my position. I suggest either you step up to the plate or just keep quiet(I am being nice today its TGIF!)
Reply
goofy Reply:
September 4th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
what’s the point? as an agent of genneva earning 1% per month you are obviously vested and biased. whatever we say will meet your usual smoke and mirrors to mislead and deflect the truth; couched in pseudo- intellectual argument; and then name calling. you and other genneva agents modus operandi are all alike, just that your command of english is better.
but this forum has served a big purpose: google ‘genneva’ today and this blog comes out tops in search rankings. even journalists/TV are reading and researching from the posts of this blog. even screenshots!
the public wil read here, and let them come to their own conclusions
Reply
dws Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 6:24 pm
Wow!! Goofy you acting all “RIGHTEOUS” man! If my memory serves me correctly you referred to some as primates, I think the word you specifically used was “Baboons”, in fact, if you do a search for “Baboons” its all you man!
Another is if I did not know any better I think you starting to develop feelings for me
First you said my arguments were “Balance and made sense” and now you say that I have a better command of English. Are you having a crush on me? This reminds of the story whereby the young man pursues the girl of his dreams with all his heart but is fiercely objected by the girl’s father due to his class, but eventually won over by his commitment, sincrety and honesty. (I was going add, handsome, charming, smart, atheletic, but I thought it’s going to be an overkill 
ha ha ) Btw, if I am the young man and you are the father, I just hope your daughter is beautiful! 
Since you won’t answer by earlier questions I shall re-phrase and ask for your opinion your definition of “Ponzi”, so that we can have civic discourse? My definition of Ponzi, for anything that even comes close or potentially ascertained as a Ponzi scheme it needs to fufill both these requirements at the same time…
1) New money vested/purchased from existing and/or new customers.
2) No actual product or service is being rendered for that agreed upon new money between buyer and seller; but just a promise to pay in a form of IOUs or its equivalent.
So Genneva based on my definition is not Ponzi, if you disagree please elaborate?
Btw, for all Gold Longs, you must be at least having a grin on your face
!!
Reply
goofy Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 7:31 pm
How you know? This Sat join me at marketplace at lor yap kwan seng – our first date woh, just go in ask for goofy – give you nice time.
dws Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 11:52 pm
K
Only if you are beautiful, if you are fat and ugly I am asking for my money back! ha ha ha…
http://watcher-watchout.blogspot.com/2009/03/scammed-out-of-our-slippers.html
enuff said , end of story …those who want to believe go and invest…
those who already believed …good for u …. sell house , sell car, borrow credit line , anything u can liquidate to get more $$ and PLEASE DUMP it into this gorilla gold
those who dun believe…. end of story…. but u may come back and “cho cho” when gorilla gold is shut ….
Reply
hi all,don’t discuss anything,just discuss gold, bying gold,earn money. that’s all. I came from alor star, here i have invest buying gold earn 3.3% a month, guarantee buy back after 1 month, so far so good. get my gold instant at the same day, keep it, renew after 1 month. very happy with it, its a good income. VERY HAPPY.
Reply
ys yee Reply:
August 19th, 2009 at 11:15 am
can you give me more info?
Reply
hi, kd8800,
what’s the name of the company
Reply
Sound really exciting especially the idea of “Getting gold instant at the same day”….
yes, really, get the gold instant at the same day, if u settle the payment before 2.00pm, u get the gold at 4.00pm, that’s it, “very senang” than keep in, or “pajak” it, what ever u want to do, remember to get it back and renew it after 1 month and you get the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. VERY HAPPY VERY HAPPY.
Reply
NK93 Reply:
August 28th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
Yes, Congratulations that you are happy.
Thank you for believing in my business, please do not let the others who think they are very intelligent, sometime these people end-up by talk much, earn less.. worst part is they are not rich at all even at their age right now.
Reply
Kw Reply:
August 30th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
I’m quite interested in yr business. Can u email me more info at kennywongkw@gmail.com
Reply
ys yee Reply:
August 31st, 2009 at 9:47 am
can u email more info about the business to ever_fill@yahoo.com
Reply
Hi Intheknow, lioninvestor and all
I am new to this part of the blog (Genneva Gold) but not at Merrill Lynch Jubilee Series 8 notes. I am sure Intheknow and lioninvestor knows me.
I am really an “idiot” to invest a sizeable sum (25%) of my saving in the notes and suffers some sleepless night. Fortunately, due to advice of intheknow, lioninvestor and many others, I survived that crisis (the invested sum is intact and I do believe BOA will be ok for the next 1.5 yrs) . I take this opportunity to acknowledge and thank Intheknow, lioninvestor and many others who shared in Merrill Lynch Jubilee Series 8 notes. It helped many investors there I believe.
Why am I saying all this here?
I saw this blog (Genneva Gold) today and spent almost 2 hours reading from the first post to the last. I cant help but feel the same sense of loss some investors may be experiencing right now.
Just my 2 cents worth after merrill notes incident
1. If something is too good to be true, it almost truly is.
Merrill Notes: The annual return is 3.15%. It is higher than fixed deposit interest. I was not told there is a risk. I was told as long as I put the money with the bank for 2.25 yrs , I will get the interest. Too good to be true..I did not think why is there a difference (comparing to teh fixed deposit interest… )
GG: If the model is truly good and sustainable, the organiser will easily get his own fund, bank loan, private investor etc etc and make the big buck. Why would he allow the public to have a slice of the cake? There is NO FREE lunch.
2. The organiser of GG are not stupid. They will cover every angle, every possible questions that investor may post at them so as to convince investor to put money with them. If you have no experience is company law, trading gold, gold market, banking law etc it is very easy to be deceived.
Even banks can deceive you legally and why not this organiser with a capable lawyer.
So if you are not convinced (point 1) or not understand or are doubtful , then dont invest…
Once again thanks Intheknow, lioninvestor and all. Good work and may GOD bless you.
Reply
lioninvestor Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 1:18 am
Hi hopeful,
you are most welcomed.
Reply
I read this thread with interest. I like to share my thoughts on Genneva’s business model.
Genneva’s business model looks more like a “gold pawn shop” + “money borrowing” tightly integrated together; so tight that it is being deceived as “gold trader”.
Until now they have not convincingly presented how they are able to make profits by gold trading to pay out 20 to 40% to their clients every year.
Many justify it is not a scam simply because Genneva pay on time to their clients. And that they refund original value of the gold if the clients decide to cash out.
We shouldn’t judge the legitamacy of this model by validating Genneva’s fullfilment of the contract or the purity of gold or the transaction is legal or even after Bank Negara’s investigation.
There is strong possibility that this model is a scam simply because the payouts to clients are not due to efforts of gold trading in the market but mainly contributed by the 20~30% above spot price that Genneva charge to clients.
Genneva offers gold that are market valued at spot price to clients in exchange for cash amount to retailed valued price, which is about 20~30% higher than spot price.
With the additional funding from the public, they buy more gold therefore raise their capital. Raising capital is not profit, in accounting term this is actually a liability because this money is not profit from gold trading in the market, but it is “recycled funding” from the public’s hard earned money; therefore it is considered liability because it belongs to the public not profit earned from gold trading.
If Bank Negara’s audit exercise successfully distinguished the business model, they would be able to tell whether there is “money borrowing” or “illegal deposits” disguised in a gold trading model.
It is not wrong conducting “gold pawn shop” model. Furthermore the gold traded is pure as testified by many investors, and no complaints or police report lodge on fake gold transacted either. I agree and have no doubts on the authenticity of the clients’ testimony. However we shouldn’t dwell on this point to justify the legitimacy of Genneva’s business model, as it is not sufficient to uphold the monthly 2~4% rebate/discount that Genneva promise to their gold buyers.
The logic is if Genneva can generate such high profit simply by doing gold trading (buy low, sell high), would they go all the trouble and risk to share their profits to other gold investors. They are offering 20 to 40% per annum to investors, why not take the profits themselves.
Why are they paying agents commissions to invite other investors to participate in this scheme? Let me give you the answer, if they can’t get new capital in, they won’t have sufficient to distribute the ‘rebates’ or ‘discounts’ to others.
Gold prices are very stable, it is impossible to generate 20 ~ 40% profit consistently simply by buying and selling in the market, especially if you take into account storage, melting, workmanship & wastage cost. All these cost are unavoidable, therefore gold traders sells at below market price to take into account the cost of processing the gold.
I have no intention to explain the mechanism of determining the price, as I believe many here know better, but to think of Genneva able to take sufficient profit from gold trading in the market, to pay 20 ~ 40% to other gold buyers is simply unbelievable!!
Reply
anybody heard any news on the BNM?
Reply
maybe sep will got news…~
Reply
Dear all Genneva Investors,
Thank you for your kind patient while awaiting for the BN investigation results, please to be informed that we will be back on business again soon by Sept 2009.
Every step of probes and investigations by BN are smoothly processed through and positively we are in the progress of implementing new company policy, altering new business model, strategies, terms n conditions so to qualify to meet up BN’s approval standard.
Hoping to receive your further continuous supports and utmost thanks for believing in us. In every business, pressures are crucial, but it is worth a lifetime. Somehow, if we can battle our confident against bad rumors, critics and other, we will be united much stronger and much happier in business world.
Thank you.
Hoping to see all of you again soon!
Reply
lioninvestor Reply:
August 28th, 2009 at 5:49 pm
If as a result of the investigation, Genneva Gold can come up with a new business model that is sustainable and rewarding to both investors and the company, then it will be a good thing.
Reply
2% Reply:
September 20th, 2009 at 8:54 pm
please lah……why cheating people money, if u can make that kind of profit bank will be more willing to lend u money with ur gold as a collateral and ur good company will only need to give a very low interest for that…..and must disguise urself by saying 2% discount instead of 2% interest and using secondhand goods license to mislead people…….
Reply
[Quote] # Voice of Reason
Bank Negara Malaysia Investigates Genneva Sdn Bhd and Etika Emas Estet Sdn Bhd
Bank Negara Malaysia has commenced investigations into Genneva Sdn Bhd and Etika Emas Estet Sdn Bhd under suspicion of conducting illegal deposit taking activities in breach of subsection 25(1) of the Banking and Financial Institutions Act 1989 (BAFIA).[/Quote].
————————-
Based on the article above, Genneva is under investigation of “illegal deposit” taking activities by BNM.
“Illegal deposit” taking as in, they (BNM) afraid Genneva taking people money doing something hanky panky and run away with the deposit. In this case, Genneva might not doing something illegal with the deposits but selling a genuine gold to investors.
Analogy: When I purchase a house (gold), I give the money to the developer (Genneva), the developer (Genneva) give me the completed house (gold), thus willing buyer and willing seller – no deposit taking for other reason but solely a normal sale and purchase of a genuine physical house (gold). Just like in pasar malam, you pay the fishmonger, the fishmonger give you a fish – normal transaction.
Therefore, I allege that BNM couldn’t charge anything onto Genneva under this category.
[Quote] # gvmngmt
Every step of probes and investigations by BN are smoothly processed through and positively we are in the progress of implementing new company policy, altering new business model, strategies, terms n conditions so to qualify to meet up BN’s approval standard.[/Quote]
Will BNM able to tell the public that this investment concept is sustainable since they are being raided under the category of “illegal deposit” taking rather than the sustainability factor?
BNM is a neutral body, will they able to give comments on this? I allege, The BNM can only ensure the public whether Genneva is “Illegal deposit” taking or not. Will have to wait for the final results.
I’m posting this before the release of the results from BNM. I have this funny feeling, if I were to post this after the results released, many pro will hurl their accusation on me for being skeptical/cynical of whatever is being clarified in the first place.
In summary, “Illegal Deposit” taking is one case, sustainability is other case.
Genneva gold might be another Wright’s Brothers, where nobody thought human can fly (possible 24%p.a via new business model?) but eventually can (yes 24%p.a possible via new business model) or just an innovated-Ponzi scheme claimed by others?
Reply
at least it’s proven that there is something wrong currently.
otherwise there would be no need to alter their current business operations.
Reply
dm Reply:
August 30th, 2009 at 10:55 am
genneva singapore has already made changes that made me more confident in putting my money there
Reply
BP Reply:
August 31st, 2009 at 9:26 am
what new changes have been made?
Reply
2% Reply:
September 20th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
ya make u more confident to con people to put money in this “conpany”…..
Reply
They continue to con the unsuspecting public. Check out their ad on Facebook and what they are saying below. If I were you guys, I would get one of the authorities to undercover and attend this – see how their ponzi works.
“Our company has made buying and selling of Physical Gold easier and more attractive by offering instant discounts and trade-in at original prices.
Come listen to understand more about how this scheme can help you to grow your money.
Time : 730pm to 9pm
Venue : Far East Shopping Center #16-13
Fee : FREE (RSVP required)
Registration start from 715pm. Light refreshment will be provided.
If you are interested, kindly RSVP via sms your name to 90097218.”
Reply
Hi intheknow..
I spend considerable time reading some of the comments posted in this forum and am totally appalled and disgusted by the naysayers negative remarks about Genneva. Do bear in mind that all constructive comments is fully appreciated
My patience paid off when I read the latest posting from GV mgmt that biz will resume soon
You know what intheknow, it’s so apparent that even after all the investigations and the fact that Genneva is going to be back in biz soon, you still have nothing better to comment. You guys are so positive..Oh I meant positively negative! When opportunity knocks some people inadvertantly object to the noise.. how sad
Though GV is not perfect in every sense of the word, perhaps in departments like system and efficiency but as long as they are running a legit and legal biz, I dont see any reason for people to complain about.
You guys (I guess you all know who I am referring to) have been judge and jury from the very beginning and so cocksure that GV’s modus operandi is that of a scam or ponzi scheme and blatantly made referrences with sunshine empire, madoff, & whatever… feel sorry for you that you are so in the dark. I think those invested in Lehman Brothers would be so glad if they are holding on to pure GOLD instead all the worthless notes.. don’t you think?
Granted.. GV’s system, policies, biz model may have flaws but thank God for the investigations it can only get better from now especially after so much scrutiny from the relevant authorities. Can you imagine any company intenting to scam public money is allow to change certain policies and best of all have their biz restored? Change is good if it is meant to improve the system and more importantly for compliance issues. Even companies or government do change policies from time to time but having said that, nothing is permanent in this world. Who knows GV may face other unknown challenges in the future after this round of inquiry but nevertheless for now I suppose all investors or GV agent can move forward with greater confidence and peace of mind.
Finally, my advice to you guys… be constructive, stay positive, have an open mind, continue to look for opportunities, take some risks and don’t be too judgemental.
Best wishes to all of you
Reply
2% Reply:
September 20th, 2009 at 9:51 pm
please lah…..u write with good english but i can see greed in it…..the 2% return, let us do a simple calculation 2% to customer 1% to agent and his manager overriding commission (might be more i only know got 2tiers with 0.7 and 0.3) and company operating cost estimate at 1% (include some promotion like another 0.5% extra to the customer during our national day)…..so we assume a total of 4% per month and if this were to compound for a year it will be almost 66% return for this investment….wait the company must still earn a profit after giving out the return to the customer….wow how can genneva make this kind of profit and so stupid to give this good return to the public…….B plus u remind me the customer still hold the physical gold at around 80% of the value…..think GENNEVA can easily borrow money from bank with gold as a collateral with a very low interest………..why con people….sigh
Reply
1. if nothing is wrong, why is there a need to change?
2. investigation results are not out yet, i would not be so sure they can resume business.
3. using GOLD holding as ‘false’ comfort again. it has been highlighted that the target is the 20% markup.
4. as mentioned, if regulators give their seal of approval, i would invest in Genneva as I am not able to find any investment scheme which can pay me 24% p.a. GUARANTEED.
Reply
Hi goofy..
You seem to have a relentless pursuit to bring Genneva down. I am curious about your undying endeavor. Is this a selfless or selfish act of yours? Do you have some unsettled issues with Genneva? What do you wish to achieve at the end of the day? and more importantly what will you do if all your offensive insinuations turn out to be untrue?
“they continue to CON the unsuspecting public” I believe CON in this context means swindle or the equivalent. This statement is so incriminating and defamatory and unless you are absolutely sure, stay away from using such incriminating remarks. You should know what is good for you, need I elaborate?
“If I were you guys I would…..” You are so pathetic! why don’t you be the one to make the arrangements instead of lobbying for others to do your dirty work.. no guts? Its pretty obvious that since you need others to find out more, you are still unsure if this is a scam or not. Why not you be the bold one to take on the challenge and attend the presentation yourself so that maybe by chance this entire revelation may put you out of misery forever. Seriously, I am sure the invitation is open to all including authorities who may also be in the market for opportunities.
Finally.. if all else fail and you are still dissatisfied, I suggest you take it easy, goof off somewhere, play golf, work out in gym, take a trial walk, fly a kite etc… oh..or go to Bangkok, I heard you can choose to wear red or yellow
P/S: no registration fee plus light refreshments what have you got to lose?
Reply
goofy Reply:
August 31st, 2009 at 10:04 pm
sigh, leave the poor sods alone and stop targeting morons and their retirement monies lah.
you are right, Genneva connives a business plan that on the surface sells grossly overpriced gold at 20% markups, hiding behind pawnshop listed gold prices as the market rate, when the true market rate is 20% less, and can be bought over the counter at UOB.
They then slowly disburse back this 20% overcharge that morons were more than willing to pay for after being sweet talked and made over promises – what’s more disbursed after a hefty waiting period, making ANY breakeven at best about a year.
This means Genneva sells gold to morons, misleading about true market rate, grabs that 20% overpriced markup, and slowly gives the morons back their own money in the first place after a series of smoke and delay tactics. Only after a year will that 2% kick in – how long this will last is anybody’s guess.
Like any other similar scheme, the first couple of batches of investors will see returns, tell everyone how ‘wonderful’ it is, then more get it – until it reaches a stage where they become a sunshine empire etc.
Channel News Asia has reported negatively. Industry leaders have condemned this. BNM and MAS are investigating them – they might get away on a technicality (please read the previous posts above), but anyone with half a brain will know what they are up to.
So if one had read all the above posts, and STILL wants to buy from Genneva, you are truly and completely not only a moron, but a complete retard. You deserve no sympathy when your money goes up in a poof, just mere laughter that you’ve paid 20% more for something which me and so many others have bought at 20% less than you from UOB.
And for those that continue to beat around the bush, divert attention from the true issues at hand, pose as readers and say ‘how wonderful genneva is’ or ‘tell me more about it’. Please spare a thought for those who you are suckering.
And don’t give me crap about legal threats – it’ll be so fun to see all your books open, see genneva go through the discovery and subpoena process, and all the bad publicity no doubt will sort of leak into the press. You will get a nice little stampede of angry investors on your hands.
Your only saving grace now is that only this forum is speaking about this issue, and very little else. Imagine when more in the press start reporting about this, and every auntie and uncle hears genneva and ptuis.
lol. i wonder who leaked this story to CNA. kudos to you!
Reply
They are on 6.30pm news tonight. Free publicity for Genneva gold!
Reply
LBF Reply:
August 31st, 2009 at 10:25 pm
what’s the good news…let’s share with us…as we missed the news at 6.30pm
Reply
going to be gone soon. another bank run will start tomorrow. then they start a 3% comm scheme.
Reply
lol. no point attacking me lah, scared of the truth issit? you have bigger problems – i see you just got cracked down by MAS today?
Reply
WoW!!!! i just saw the news on channel 8.. who leaked out this forum??? hahaha
Reply
truth always prevails… no matter how the agents try to cover.
i missed the news cover..
what actually was mentioned?
Reply
Missed the news cover too… can’t seem to get any online records of what was covered – can anyone who saw the news cover please summarise and post what was communicated in media?
Reply
Pl let us know the news aired in the media. Is it against the Genneva? I want to inest some money in the Genneva. Thanks.
Reply
B PLUS Reply:
September 1st, 2009 at 12:17 pm
Hi maya..
drop me your email address or mobile number and I’ll be glad to share with you personally
Reply
Is there a news blackout? seems like media coverage at 6:30pm, 8pm, on CNA, and someone else said on channel 8 (10+pm), but no more coverage at 11pm CNA. Don’t see any coverage in ST / Today.
What was mentioned?
Reply
wholesaler Reply:
September 1st, 2009 at 10:27 am
The news coverage was on Chnnel 8 and U Channel. I thought it was quite long. Basically, the reporter said that they saw someone pasted a poster at HDB void deck stating that “Buy Gold and get 2% monthly. Pls call XXX”.
So he called XXX and pretended to be a potential customer. XXX met up with him and brought him to the office at Orchard Tower. The reporter saw many other customers doing transactions too and secretly video taped his trip. Later on, he went online to realise that GV is under investigation by BNM in Malaysia. He even mentioned this website which was active in discussion.
Last part was when he interviewed the President of the Singapore Jewellery Association, Charles Ho. He cautioned that the public should be wary of such schemes as he was not sure if 24% would be sustainable in the gold industry.
I feel the news coverage was merely to bring the whole GV scheme into light as aggressive promotion was done in HDB places. The story was objective as there were no comments on the sustainability or legality of the business. I guess the TV just want to highlight such things in the market.
Reply
The report opened with a footage of some flyers pasted at HDB lift lobby offering 2% return investing in gold.
Reporter responded to the flyer and went under-cover to investiggate. Footages of people in Genneva office transacting as well as that of a mandarin agent explaining the scheme to the under-cover reporter in a kopi-tiam were shown.
Quick video footages of forum postings (not sure if its this forum) were shown as well, with the word “Ponzi” distinctly flashed.
This is followed by an interview with some gold association officials who caution the public to be wary of investment scheme that sounds too good to be true. It ended with newscaster saying that the company is currently under investigation by the authorities in Malaysia.
This all recapped from my memory so may not be 100% correct so dont hold be liable hor…….
Reply
so which agent is going to call up the gold association officials and enlighten them that 24% p.a. is indeed sustainable?
those gold association officials must be really inexperienced and don’t know their stuff to caution the public!
maybe blast the President of Singapore Jewellery Association as well? how could he not know of such a wonderful and sustainable scheme’s existence?
Reply
goofy Reply:
September 1st, 2009 at 1:45 pm
lol, trust me, these genneva agents are gonna write another post skirting the issue, smokescreen again, mislead again – and then probably call the gold association folks as idiot, blah blah. usual modus operandi lah
Reply
Yes, its a big conspiracy by the govt to clam down such lucrurative investment program as this will cause a bank run as every man, his dog and hamster will withdraw their life savings to partcipate in this investment and hence will cause a major financial meltdown.
The “big brother dont want the small guys to get rich” will be the next smokescreen by these people in self denial. It’s exactly the same each time a HYIP collapsed when the authorities stepped in.
It so predictable that it isn’t funny anymore.
Reply
gold is bought by 3 types of people
one type buy from bank keep it just like a pet as it wont devalue
2nd type buy it from jewellery shop gold chain,bangles etc to wear in all occasion
3rd type buy it from genneva trade it after one month whats wrong with that . it’s not against the law.
For me i don’t buy and keep, don’t wear jewellery i only like to buy and sell.
Reply
facts Reply:
September 2nd, 2009 at 1:11 am
You like to buy and sell, can open gold trading account. trade spot gold, trade comex, trade loco london, 24 hours a day. Very liquid, can buy and sell may times, no need to wait for 1 mth or 3 mths.
If you want phyiscal gold, can also buy from UOB, sell it back to them, instantly if you want.
Only difference with all the above avenues for you to trade is that they don’t guarantee you 2% return per month.
Buying and selling gold for a guarantee return of 2% per month is not trading. It is a investment scheme. Whether its legitimate or not remains to be seen.
To many pro-genneva investors, the arguement is that as long as it pays it’s legit and they are happy so why the big fuss with all this investigation and allegations?
But they fail to see beyond the bigger scheme of things. As far as the authorities are concern, they dont care if investors make or lose money in such investments, they are concern with money laundering and financing of terrorism.
Any investment transactions that has no apparent or visible economic purpose will come under suspicion. There are many creative ways to place, layer and finally integrate illicit money into circulation.
I am not implicating anything here just to set the record straight, just airing my opinion on why caution should be excercise when you are given something for nothing in return. Don’t let greed get the better of you.
Reply
Went thru the comments here. (no all, but more than 30)
Well, my view :
IF – the Gold Bullion is genius. Yes indeed, it’s a good return. Cos even the company burst, u still have the Gold Bullion to sell in open mkt. (may lost few % ofcause) So long as u r not the last to enter, should be fine.
But Sorry, if u r the last one to joint.
But again – is it legal? well, got to ask the lawyer , me dun know.
I would like to highlight – Can any one confirm / tested that the Gold Bullion is REAL? Anyone cut it before & tested. I means inside the middle, is it real 999? or something….. filter?
i doult any investor will take the bullion for cutting it into 2 pcs, & test it. Well, for lighter bullion, can be real gold, coz there may be really got somebody will do the cutting.
Hpow about for those HEAVY DUTY bullion? i doult if u invest S$50K for the bullion, and u will cut it to check out!
Furthermore, look like public also can be their agent. coz so many agent willing to shares their investment here. i presume they may have some commision.
Just like MLM, aft u become a member/investor, u too can recomman/intro new investor…. and so on. (i presume many of us now known what is MLM)
Lastly, for those want to get fast $, fast in fast out. Dun be the last to hold the bb.
Thats all.
Thanks.
Reply
goofy Reply:
September 2nd, 2009 at 1:27 am
Yup you said it right ra.v – typical MLM scam!. so would any sane person buy from a Malaysian company filled with hacks that cannot speak or write properly; are so desperate that they paste ads in poor neighbourhoods in Malaysia and Singapore; that promises 24% returns per annum PLUS pay commissions to an upstream of agents?
If anyone is even interested in this, then truly, they are retards
Reply
I attended a session at the genneva office in singapore and asked them some tough questions about their business model that can afford to pay out such an attractive return of upwards of 40% per annum on capital. They replied it was proprietary knowhow……………….and therefore not available to me.
So all I can do is sit back and wonder how such a profitable and seemingly safe business model is not already used widely.
Actually, the return on capital seems even higher than 40% and closer to 200% per annum, which truly boggles the mind….. you would think with returns like that, one could be called stupid to share it with others but genneva can’t possibly be stupid, can they!!!!!
Ok let me explain how I arrived at those numbers….they promise investors a 2% per month (they term it a discount…. not interest, presumably to get around the strict regulations governing money lending) That totals 24% in a year. They pay their agents upwards of an additional 1% per month for the business that is brought in, which is of course very attractive, since this is a recurring 1% as all investors would definitely renew at the end of each month. This adds up to another 12% in a year. Noting that this is on monthly rests, the 24+12 would not just amount to 36% per annum but actually closer to 40% per annum in effective rate. On top of this, the investor gets to hold on to a collateral that is 80% of his capital. In other words, the risk capital is really only 20%. Now to get a 40% per annum on a risk capital of 20% is effectively a 200% return on capital. Now since this is what genneva has to pay out, clearly it does not make good business sense if genneva cannot make more than what it pays out so this then requires that the return on capital must be even higher in order to have a sustainable business model!!!!
So we then have to ask ourselves what magic is this that allows genneva to make this kind of exceptional returns.
I asked but they would not explain their magic formula so I will try to see if I can guess by stating some pertinent facts….
1. genneva can only make profits if it sells its gold bullion at a price higher than their cost. This sale is not to the investors because ALL of them have an option to sell back their gold holdings to genneva at month’s end for exactly the same price they paid for it. So then, who is the ultimate buyer of this gold at a price that allows genneva a profit of more than 40% of the cost of all the gold they sell? Goldsmiths?????
2. perhaps investors outnumber REAL sales and as long as more new investors come in, older investors will always get paid and the cycle will perpetuate with new money paying off old money and new old money continues in the scheme each month. And with the attractive commisions paid to their agents, and the seemingly good return on capital, this becomes the goose that lays the golden eggs for all parties. But we all know that the goose exists only in a fairy tale if no insufficient REAL sales take place to generate the profits.
3. For all those who have gone in so far and received their returns, play safe and quit while you are ahead.
4. For all those thinking of joining, please consider if you would like to be one of the last to have your money exchanged for gold.
5. And for the authorities who are supposed to look out for the common man, do look closely into why GIC and Temasek wouldn’t do better if they invested in genneva and get this “safe” attractive return instead of their foray into the riskier less rewarding world of crappy investment.
6. And to think people actually thought bernie madoff’s 10% per annum on full capital was a good deal and still got screwed! They just didn’t have the magic of genneva which gives a virtual 200% return!!!!!
Reply
in all fairness.. qiyo, your language is way ruder than wonderinvestor ever was.
wonderinvestor may be sullying the name of Genneva without Genneva being proven as a scam/ponzi yet, but at least he doesn’t indulge in vulgarities.
qiyo, is this really your posting or just some person masquerading with your nickname? doesn’t sound like your usual self.
Reply
lioninvestor Reply:
September 3rd, 2009 at 1:58 am
Hi Intheknow, wonderinvestor and pips,
I apologise for the confusion. That post by Qiyo was actually a few weeks ago during one of the heated exchanges with another person. So the context was totally different.
It certainly wasn’t directed at wonderinvestor.
I didn’t approve that post then, and had accidentally approved it today while I was removing all of Qiyo’s other comments at his request.
That’s why you would have gotten an email notification of that comment. Kindly ignore it. Thank you.
Reply
Certainly agree Intheknow, Qiyo doesnt type this way.. but maybe he is angry about ppl accusing him… like a volcano erupted..
Reply
Kudos to wonderinvestor to his expose about the recurring commissions agents get.
sheesh – 1% monthly / per renewal
for each kilobar of gold that’s RM120,000
1% is RM1200 per month
not bad! probably works the same way in Singapore too.
no wonder these agents are so obviously vile and desperate to mislead here – huge vested interests.
Do we know if one has to be a customer first before becoming an agent?
This is totally MLM, and smacks of a ponzi. I’ve written in to BNM and MAS to give them a heads up on this information if they haven’t already come across it.
Let’s see how the investigations go – will update
Reply
why does Qiyo want his comments removed?
hmmm…. makes me wonder..
and i thought he was one of the better agents who tried to argue with us.
the rest were just spouting hot air.
Reply
Ok all is forgiven, I did make a little dig at his animated bluster but let me be the first to offer my hand if he unclenches his fist:) Anyway for what it’s worth, there is really NO WAY that those kind of 200% per annum returns can be made, consistently, month after month unless it’s magic or it’s magdoff!!!!! yeah yeah yeah, I know it’s spelt without a “g” but you can’t blame a guy for using references of well known magicians, duh.
I am glad that the relevant authorities have been sounded out to investigate this…..heads would roll and I really don’t think the people would forgive them if this ever turns out to be the scam of golden proportions (sorry, couldn’t help myself there) so soon after that last MINIBOND debacle…which pales in comparison to this in terms of promised returns!!!!!!
Just think, if this was not fraudulent, anyone with a house or houses could just mortgage their properties, borrow funds from banks at 3% per annum, and dump all that cash into this scheme and still return a net 24-3=21% pa. Is there any more need to work? I rest my case!!!!
Reply
therein lies the problem. genneva and its agents are not targeting the rich, sophisticated or the educated. the way they go about marketing it and judging from the channelnewsasia videos, they are targeting the retirees, the heartlanders and the uneducated – these people entrust their life savings to a bunch of hacks, and they cannot afford to lose it!
wonderinvester, could you share w us exactly how the genneva system works?
Reply
Take a look at this website…http://www.genneva.com.sg/ suggest all of you who are interested go down to their office to learn more. It isn’t difficult to get invited.
The agent’s commission is not indicated there but I understand it is upwards of 1% and it is a monthly recurring one if the same investor continues to roll his “investment” or even increases it. It is an amazingly profitable deal for the agent once he gets an investor, he gets him for life, or as long as Genneva “exists” And trust me, earning 1% on everyone else’s money is a very very attractive incentive for the propagation of this scheme. And tell me, which investor earning 24% pa on his 20% capital (since he has the gold bullion as collateral) would not like to continue? The agent has absolutely no risk and earning five figures a month is relatively common!
Note also the clever way Genneva avoids paying the GST….when you buy something, you pay the GST….when you sell, you charge GST. When you sell to the investor and buy back from him, your GST cancels out. But IRAS is probably quite generous these days. Even the financial regulatory authorities appear close both eyes to this type of fund raising!
Reply
wholesaler Reply:
September 4th, 2009 at 11:12 am
hi wonderinvestor. I dun think your analysis on the GST is right. I am also in the gold trading biz and know how GST accounting works.
When GV sells the gold with GST, this GST is paid to IRAS. However, when GV buys back at original price, GV cannot claim the GST because an individual (investor) is not a registered GST body with IRAS. So on the invoice of buying back “old gold” from public, they cannot input the GST there so GV cannot claim back this amount.
That’s why I have been scratching my heads for months on how on earth can GV sustain by buying back at same price and absorb the GST lost in the first place…
Unless they are doing some creative accounting to balance the GST sums… or else their nett return is actually 20-7=13% and yet they can generate 24% pa! But using wonderinvestor’s argument above, then 13+12 (comm)=25% on 20% capital, then maybe the overall rate of return would amount to 125% pa.
By the way, IRAS is not that generous and they are quick to check if you evade any GST and penalty is high!
Reply
goofy Reply:
September 4th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
Simple – just write in to IRAS to audit their books.
Reply
jazz Reply:
September 5th, 2009 at 10:26 pm
This is most welcome.
Goofy, why not be your helpful self and write to IRAS?
Reply
goofy Reply:
September 6th, 2009 at 12:10 am
duh, coz they’re over there and i’m over here? besides, i’d much rather spend my time reading all these wonderfully entertaining posts.
Reply
wonderinvestor Reply:
September 5th, 2009 at 2:31 am
Thank you wholesaler….I stand corrected. I had assumed that the GST would net off to zero (when they do a round turn on the gold exchange with the investor) as it would otherwise seem even more difficult to generate a return that would have also covered the additional 7% GST to be absorbed by genneva. Just imagine…….2% to investor, 1% to agent, 7% to IRAS on every gold transaction….that works out to a hefty 10% per month or 120% per year just to cover their distribution cost, not including rental of premises, staff costs, other marketing costs, storage costs, etc. That would really make this a super super super business model if genneva can make any money from such an arrangement of only 20% capital from an investor….too mind boggling to even contemplate! That, my friend, can no longer be classified as magic…it has to be called an ACT of GOD where all things are possible:)
Anyhow, whether or not the GST nets off to zero, the whole scheme still has a very strong odour.
Reply
Full of crap these pple always like to pour cold water on something which they wont dare risk to invest and off course not gaining anything out of it which many of couragous investors has been gaining the 2% for the past 1yr +.
I have been watching from the sideline knowing the what real grievances behind all these, and that is “Jealousy”
Those who complain to the authorities in KL are obviously the banks who are jealous GV is taking away their customers. So far I heard none of GV complain about anything.
And those who cant gain anything out of it maybe because they not enough funds or dare not risk is jealous that GV customers are enjoying all the returns for more than a year by now. The only thing they could do is to mislead the public that GV is conning pple.
So sick these pple.
Those who come to this website to wish to find out more abt the gold bar investment ought to judge for themselves objectively whether is the investment suitable for them or has GV conned anyone that the authorities were after them.
Just look at who are those who are complaining.
Reply
goofy Reply:
September 4th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Who you trying to bluff? They started Singapore operations in July 2008. Probably first few customers in Q408. Then you have the waiting period?
It is not jealousy – who would be jealous of undereducated simpletons who believe anything they are told and will go all out to reach into the pockets of the poor?
No, it’s more of concern for those who will be affected by these dastardly schemes. There is enough of them in the world, and these people shouldn’t be enriching themselves through the plight of the morons.
Do yourself a favor and go get an honest, stable job instead of these elaborate MLMs and ponzi schemes. You will feel much better.
I have no hidden agenda. I post here simply because it’s really really fun! Folks like you make the reading really interesting. Like i said in previous posts – it’s like going to the zoo’s monkey enclosure, and watching them primates do stupid but comedic things like licking their arses, swinging away, etc. Pointless, but highly entertaining at times!
Reply
action boy Reply:
September 19th, 2009 at 9:34 am
golden boy……who r u trying to bluff also…..
if geneva is doing the right things the bank will be their first customer instead of people like u…….gennva wont be so stupid to market their gold with commission pay to people like u also, use ur brain and u know is hard to make that profit to give to their customer…..i think u know better than us……..2% to people buying their gold and at least 1% to their agent and assuming their marketing cost and company operation to be 0.5%….their paid out is 3.5% of the total amount invested and dont forget they give u back the GOLD that is 80% of the amount that one buy from them, so they only left 20% to invest so their acutal return on investment got to be almost 18% monthly…..why got so good…..u and genneva want to bluff who….
Reply
Haha, same old pple, say old theory, i think this goofy must be sick.
Anyway i dont bother to read his subjective comments, i ‘m sure many courageous investors out there already laughing all the way to the bank every mth, goofy still left behind. Pity him
Reply
golden boy. it is YOU that we are all laughing at.
Reply
poor thing intheknow, many pple laughing all the way to the bank, only you or just the two of u laughing at me……….so silly
Reply
Defamation
499. Whoever, by words either spoken or intended to be read, or by signs, or by visible representations, makes or publishes any imputation concerning any person, intending to harm, or knowing or having reason to believe that such imputation will harm, the reputation of such person, is said, except in the cases hereinafter excepted, to defame that person.
Explanation 1.—… … … …
Explanation 2.—It may amount to defamation to make an imputation concerning a company, or an association or a collection of persons as such.
Punishment for defamation
500. Whoever defames another shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 2 years, or with fine, or with both.
Reply
can anyone please update me on the outcome of both the malaysian and singapore authorities investigation into this apparent magical scheme of our swiss sounding magician, genneva?
does a positive outcome mean an endorsement by the respective governments that this is all OK?
Reply
Dear Friend,
I am interested to know the following from the Genneva management :
1. Will Genneva honour its buy back guarantee (BBG)?
2. Will Genneva pay the discount as contracted during the period it is under investigation? If not, will it then immediately exercise its obligation to buyback?
Genneva has conveniently asked investors to sell the gold traded by Genneva before the BNM investigations, to sell it to a company which they refuse to name, at 80% of the buying price. This scheme is then pushed onto the shoulders of the agents’ club with the excuse that this is to help the investors to recover their losses.
Upon surrendering the gold at 80% of the purchase price, the investor is then encouraged to invest into a Company known as Samudra GV. I leave it to the investing public and the authorities to figure out (if they have not already done so), the relationship between Genneva and Samudra. With thisinvestment, the investor is given 2.7% rebate on the 80%. Assuming this is a new investor,
he would have taken a hit of 20% when he bought the gold from Genneva and now he is taking another 20% hit as he is buying the gold at a level where Samudra is making its marjin. With this purchase there is no buy back guarantee and so Samudra after selling the gold and making its 20% will continue selling gold.
So now comes the next question, who will the investor sell the gold to? How much can he sell the gold at? Does he have to wait for the international market to go up before he can sell the gold at a profit? Is this gold trading model approved by the authorities? This is not a ponzi scheme as with the profit Samudra is making, business will last forever, God willing. Can someone please enlighten me as I am still in the dark as to whether this is an investment scheme or a “milking” scheme? Thank you.
Reply
goofy Reply:
September 15th, 2009 at 1:19 am
I don’t understand – can you clarify if this is correct:
1: Moron buys gold from Genneva at 120% market rate (purchase price)
2: Moron asked to sell gold to Samudra at 80% purchase price (which works out to 96% of market rate – he loses 4% extra)
What’s the mechanism for ‘investing’ in Samudra and when does the moron get his 2.7% rebate?
Reply
OMG!
exactly the modus operandus of SUNSHINE EMPIRE… and we all know what happened after this ‘transfer’ to Emmax (not sure about spelling).
are they attempting to move out the assets from the country of investigation into a country where investigations cannot be easily conducted / will be greatly delayed??
can we have the Genneva supporters/agents answer WHY IS GENNEVA DOING THIS?
Reply
Can Genneva or Samudra or any of their agents and/or supportors please answer the many questions in my above posting. All the comments only go on the theoretical. Now we have an “Genneva/Samudra Agents’” proposal which give rise to questions on the basic guarantees given by Genneva, we want answers and not theories. Facts and figures, please.
Reply
With the Bank Negara action on Genneva, there is now Samudra GV doing the same business on a slightly different model which is more risky to the investors dispite the promised returns.
The main difference being there is no Guaranteed Buy Back (BBG).
1. So the question arise. Who is going to buy back the gold and at what rate since the gold is being sold with at least a 20% premium.
2. If the investor sells the gold at the prevailing market rate, it is a losing proposition even when he collects the 2.7% rebate and the agent collects either 0.7% or 1.3% depending on whether they are an agent or an agency.
3. If the Genneva investor decides to liquidate their gold holding and invest in Samudra GV, they will immediately lose the BBG from Genneva as they will have no more gold.
4. Genneva promises that they will allow double billing (one lot of gold can go round 2 times) once they re-start operation. Is this confirmed.
5. Genneva is not paying for any discount during the period of BNM investigation. In this case, they should straight away allow investors to cash out based on they buy back guarantee instead of telling the investor to go to Samudra GV and take a hit of 20%.
5. Is it true that in the event BNM investigations are over and the accounts of Genneva is unfrozen, those investors who does not take “advantage” of the Samudra GV offer will be waiting behind those who take the Samudra GV offer, even if their period of investment has ended as claimed by the agents. Can Genneva please confirm.
This is posted with the intention of getting the proper information from Genneva and is in no way meant to disparage either Genneva or Samudra GV. Maybe BNM can clarify.
Reply
Obviously by knowing so much about this new structure shows that you are one of the investor who had invested under Genneva Scheme earlier. My advice: Talk to the right people (Agent or Agency that brought you into Genneva, Call up the office or talk to any of Genneva’s directors) and make your decision. This is Singapore base forum, singaporean here know nothing about the scheme and advice might not be appropriate. Based on my understanding, sheme under samudra is an option, you can choose not to join in if you re not comfortable. that is.
Reply
My advice: This is Singapore based forum, Singaporean know nothing about the new scheme under Samudra. Talk to the right people because you need the right information to make the right informed decision. Talk to any of Genneva directors for clarification they re not running away and everyday they been talking to numerous number of people like YOU. They are available at Genneva Office at Kuchai Lama. Over here is more about comments, gossips, rumours which will not help you. I strongly believe that those who posted comments here are those without the vested interest in Genneva like YOU. You can continue to check this forum out, but nothing fruitful will be the result. More importantly it will not help you solve your problems. Thats it. Like it or not. Decision is all yours. BE SMART
Reply
goofy Reply:
September 15th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
if things are legit and aboveboard with genneva to begin with, why this need for the cloak and daggers, and why such complicated asset transfers to samudra just to hide fr bnm?
they haven’t done this in singapore yet because our sothern neighbours are smarter and have more serious laws.
now with this new info, why cant local and singapura investors see this for what it is – a bloody con job
Reply
Intheknow Reply:
September 15th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
sunshine was conducted in singapore and they also did the same ‘transfer’ to emmax.
i don’t think it’s the singapore factor… but maybe they have a stronger investor pool in malaysia, so they try to evacuate the bigger portion first?
Reply
hey agent… could you advise WHY is Genneva asking clients to transfer to Samudra?
Reply
After 8 days’ of peace, here we go again….!
Reply
Thank you Jonathan, limintheknow, goofy and Jazz for your input.
I will first provide the input required by Goofy.
Genneva in Malaysia operates the same model as used in Singapore except the rebate returned every month is 2.5% in Malaysia while in Singapore it is 2.0%.
Here goes :
Assuming an investor buys 1 kg (1,000 gm) of gold from Genneva before the Bank Negara (BNM) raid, he pays RM130,000. In return he gets a cheque valued at RM3,250 or 2.5% as rebate and monthly rebate of 2.5% per month for the next 2 months. At the end of the 3 months’ period, the investor has three options :
1. To return the gold to Genneva and get back his full investment of RM130,000 under the buy back guarantee (BBG);
2. To roll over for another period of 3 months and collect rebate of 2.5% per month;
3. To keep the gold
If the investor had started investing in June 2009, he would have collected one rebate cheque for 2.5% of his investment. Bank Negara raided Genneva on 21st July 2009 and no rebate is paid subsequent to the raid as Genneva had unilaterally stopped payment with the excuse that it is not able to conduct its business as its assets are frozen and therefore without income, it does not have the resources to pay.
Subsequently, at the end of August 2009, it was announced that Samudra GV will start business and that the management having considered the appeals of its agents, decided as follows :
1. A company, for convenience to be called ABC Company, will buy back the Genneva gold at 80% of its current value of RM135,000 per kg.
2. Once the gold is “sold” to ABC company, Genneva will be relieved of its Buy Back Guarantee;
3. Samudra GV will issue 800 gm of gold valued at the normal value of RM108,000;
4. Samudra GV will give the investor a rebate of 2.7% and the agent 0.7% or 1.3% depending on whether it is an agent or an agency. Hence, for the one month period, Samudra GV would have make a profit at around 20% which is the figure bandied about with no actual profit margin made known to the investor.
5. The Buy Back Guarantee is no longer given and at the end of the one month period, the investor will sell the gold to ABC company with the “understanding” that it will be at a price at which the gold is purchased.
6. The purchaser can opt to keep the gold or roll over for another month ad infinitum;
7. When Samudra GV have sold gold to the amount of 500 kg or when the Genneva accounts are unfrozen, the investor is allowed to go for double billing. In other words, the investor is allowed to bring his 800 gm of gold bought from Samudra GV and borrow 200 gm to make up the original quantity of 1 kg (1,000 gm) and re-sell this gold to Genneva and get a 2.5% rebate. Therefore, the investor is paid 2.7% rebate by Samudra GV and a further 2.5% by Genneva, totally 4.2% per month and this added to the agent’s commission will come to 5.6% – 6.8% per month. Annualized, the investor is taking out 67.2%- 81.6% per year. Is this sustainable?
Of course the agent’s are all defending the scheme as they stands to gain and their defence is that without the risks where can you get such high gain. Moreover, their stand is that the poor investor came in of their own free will and of their own accord. But because of their vested interest, the agent have never given any transparency and prefer to hide behind the assertion that Genneva have honoured their obligations all these past 2 years.
But has Genneva done so?
Have they paid the promised rebate?
Have they stood by their Buy Back Guarantee?
Therefore, investor beware of the sweet smooth talk of all the agents who does not want to talk facts and figures but would rather hide behind vague promises. They think that if a statement is repeated and echoed a few thousand time, it become a fact.
If the agents or Genneva is so sure that their scheme will work then they should come out and give the correct picture so as to gain the confidence of the investor. Otherwise, BNM should move to stamp out schemes which are not sustainable.
Reply
Jonathan Reply:
September 15th, 2009 at 11:58 pm
Very well analyzed. Very well informed. Very updated. Bravo! Guess what, you dont need any input from others any more.
For all Genneva agents here who have read, follow up and contributed in this forum earlier…. is time to stop posting in this forum. Dont waste time here defending your standing that favor genneva because no one will appreciate. The more you defend the longer the tread gonna be. It doesnt help but lead to more confusion.
It will be better of to concentrate on those who know how to appreciate which obviously you cant find any here. Please understand, there are way more people out there deserve your help and sharing compare to people here that you can argue until cow comes home but its nothing more than entertaining them.
BE SMART~!
Reply
As long Genneva is still doing bussiness and still open ,who cares just go and buy a kilo.
And those who sell back after the news will return next month
and buy gold again.
Reply
Jonathan Reply:
September 16th, 2009 at 1:23 am
You re very positive. But sooner or later you will be shot down by commenter here. Better not to post here anymore. People here will not appreciate unless you re on their side (They are Hard-Core-Anti-Genneva) So do spend time doing other things that might benefit you more.
Reply
Coming to Jonathan’s comments.
First of all Genneva even though it is a Malaysian born co has a similar operation in Singapore with the only difference being the rebate at 2.0% instead of the 2.5% in Malaysia. That is because Singapore bank interest is so low that 2.0% is like a gift. Anyway, sooner or later there is this possibility of what happened in Malaysia happening in Singapore. So, the buy back guarantee may not be allowed and our friends in Genneva may then decide to separate the buying from the selling and set up a “submarine” company to take over one of the roles similar to what is done in Malaysia. Taliking to the agents or the Directors is like asking a prostitute what is the best entertainment in town. When they are will to unilaterally stop payment of rebate and try to run away from their buy back guarantee what more to say. Wake up man. The stakes are high. See how even Starprobe is silenced.
Reply
Dear intheknow,
First of all I am not an agent, but I can shed some light on your question.
In June 2009, Genneva held a posh function where the Samudra GV was introduced to the public and among the speakers at the function were various personalities from both Genneva and Samudra GV. For more information a visit to the Registrar of Companies and a search will be revealing.
Reply
Jonathan Reply:
September 16th, 2009 at 1:34 am
What are you trying to achieve from this forum? You re quite informed. In fact you know in and out of Genneva plus their latest platform under samudra. Outsider/public especially from Singapore or even Malaysia might not know as much as you. You claimed that you re not an agent. Investor perhaps? You wont get such an update unless you re an agent or investor.
Reply
Jonathan needs to be reminded that lioninvest Mr. Martin Lee had start this when he was asked about the scheme call Genneva Gold mainly due to the lack of transparency or the fact that gold is sold by the millions and investors are not comfortable but because of the desire to get rich, people are still going in. The purpose of the posting is to help to stimulate the debate in order to create some transparency. Obviously there are people with vested interest who will work very hard to end the debate in order that “the scheme is given a chance to work”. I have no objection to this but Genneva and Samudra GV and/or its agent will have to be more transparent.
Genneva have already defaulted unofficially (because there is no official announcement) on 2 of its principal undertakings. In fact and deed, investors had been told that they will not be getting the rebate for the period their accounts is frozen by BNM. If they had announced officially that the rebates will be honours upon their accounts being unfrozen, it will be to their credit. Their action through their agent (again there is no official announcement) for investors to cash their gold with ABC company at 80% of the buy back guaranteed price is also against their commitment on the buy back guarantee. The agents are also saying that those who does not cash out at the 20% discount, will have to be at the end of the queue after BNM unfreeze their account even though their period of purchase is over. All we are asking is that Genneva or its agents provide the investors with transparency and official announcement of their action and not play a cloak and dagger game with the investors through their agents who has a vested interest. We want transparency. Full stop. As I have said earlier, to put it crudely, what answer would you get if you had asked the prostitute what is the best entertainment in town.
Reply
Jonathan Reply:
September 17th, 2009 at 11:28 am
You re right all the way. Cant think of anything you miss out. Again, very analytical. You know almost everything…
Reply
I just hope our efforts to educate the public had helped to prevent curious investors from getting involved with Genneva after reading all the negative posts.
If so, I think the time that we have spent typing the messages is worth it.
Irregardless of what the agents might say about me, I derive no pleasure or joy in seeing the scheme fail. My aim is just to educate the public because I am In-the-Know.
Reply
I like to share my thoughts, as I noticed the discussion had dwell on the legitimacy of Genneva’s business in few instances.
I feel though the business may be legal, we need to understand that anything legal is not necessarily morally right.
I have presented my thoughts back in 20th Aug http://www.lioninvestor.com/genneva-gold/#comment-23922 , we can’t just decide based on legitimacy nor the promising profits but also whether this is morally right way to earn money!!
It is ok to earn money from the returns from investment, but it is certainly not right to earn money from ponzi scheme because the payout comes from deposits of subsequent investors. The gains are at others people expense and certainly not nett gains from gold trading.
If the information about the fund being transferred to another company is true, then those who gained and managed to transfer their funds successfully has done it at the expense of later investors.
I can understand those who invested would want to recover their money. As long as Genneva says they have the money to buy back, then there is still hope. But if they tell you to continue, please consider before you decide.
Reply
anyone can tell me is our singapore authorithy going to stop genneva from operating in singapore, i think the 2% is very attractive and since the news had broadcast their operation our relevant authority should take action if it is cheating public money, if not our authority should be blamed if genneva burst is like another lehman brother or mardoff case…..
Reply
dm Reply:
September 20th, 2009 at 10:52 am
I think we cannot blame our authority, its our own will to buy gold from genneva and i dont find that its cheating, i had the gold and got the 2% discount . many years back I invest in bubble tea biz and go bust who to blame the authorty or compettitors.
Reply
2% Reply:
September 20th, 2009 at 7:41 pm
please if they are not up for cheating people money, then Genneva should be very happy that they got free advertisement from the press……u run biz before u should know is not easy to give this kind of return every month, is not just 2% plus the overriding of the manager and the commission the agent earn for evey gold they sold and the company operating costs……at least around 5% per month pay out…..they will wind down the company once they collected enough money and the growth of people buying their gold get lesser…..the authorithy got to handle this case cause Genneva is cheating the public money…
Reply
Sound very attractive…
Reply
Congratulations to dm. Genneva needs people like you to make the world go round and the pyramid to get higher. As long as there are people like dm rushing in, the pyramid is stable. Once the gold rush slows, you still have the gold unless you are unfortunate to be at the roll over period when you hand over your gold and wait for the “new” gold. Good luck.
Reply
hi lioninvestor, to prevent more uncles and aunties for putting their money into Genneva and loss their hard earn money. why not u can call the mas to investigate and address this issue about genneva since u r in the financial industry….thanks
Reply
lioninvestor Reply:
September 21st, 2009 at 8:47 am
Hi 2%,
This has actually been done 2 months back.
http://www.lioninvestor.com/genneva-gold/#comment-20132
Reply
2% Reply:
September 21st, 2009 at 6:05 pm
and our MAS is not taking any action…..from what i know they are still selling very aggressively in singapore, cannot believed this is our first class government…..is it because they are people in MAS involve in Genneva also……
Reply
goofy Reply:
September 22nd, 2009 at 1:40 pm
Please loh, look at our dear BNM over here. investigate already but still this genneva-samudra gold transfer fiasco is still happening. you think down in singapore super-careful MAS haven’t announce yet can stop this unethical behaviour to happen fast? there are just too many morons and imbeciles falling for this on both sides of the causeway
Reply
dm Reply:
September 21st, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Why you dont advise uncle and aunties not to play stocks, they will loss 100% compare to 20%
Reply
2% Reply:
September 21st, 2009 at 4:52 pm
why you dont ask Genneva to public listed their market and show people how they run their biz and their accounts first…..as what other listed company in the stock market do……Genneva cant do that because they are cheating people money……gold is just a product for them to con people
Reply
jazz Reply:
September 21st, 2009 at 10:54 pm
2%, my advice to you is to be more careful with your choice of words.
Blatant accusations may just land you in trouble!
Reply
Intheknow Reply:
September 21st, 2009 at 5:50 pm
stop lumping unrelated issues together! stop using oranges to answer apples!
stocks are of course volatile… can make and lose very fast. people go in with their eyes open.
but genneva is being sold as a guaranteed product when it is only as good as the credit worthiness of itself (which in my opinion is crap).
your comment “Why you dont advise uncle and aunties not to play stocks, they will loss 100% compare to 20%” is skirting the issue that Genneva’s business model is unsustainable and disguising the possible ponzi structure of Genneva.
Reply
Dear 2%
Genneva and its agents are deafeningly silent to the investing public. Genneva Singapore has shut down its website for re-construction to serve you, the investing public, better. Genneva Malaysia put the following statement on its website
Quote : The Company wishes to emphasize that it is a genuine company trading in physical gold products and the company pledges to honour all its commitments to the customers: unquote
This statement is contrary to its action in not paying the promised rebates and informing all its investors to sell the gold they are holding to ABC company at 20% discount (80% of the buy back guarantee price). kelvin.genneva@gmail.com who was on the lioninvestor.com/genneva-gold/ does not reply to email. Most probably he had left for another of the mushrooming gold investment companies.
The Malaysian Genneva investors are then asked to buy gold in Samudra GV where Genneva has 49% share and where a prominant bumiputra Datuk is involved. As one of the leading agent said, investors come in willingly knowing the risks involved in investments with such high returns. The question is : Does the investor really know the risks. Samudra GV doesn’t even guarantee buyback.
Reply
Hi all, i came across another company offering similar scheme as Genneva. I was approached by their agent. It seems to be quite credible. They sell swiss gold with certificate. Anyone know about this company call “thegoldlabel”? please advice.
Reply
Intheknow Reply:
September 22nd, 2009 at 12:04 pm
do you buy at current gold spot? is the gold tested?
Reply
jazz Reply:
September 23rd, 2009 at 10:05 am
Do u know of anyone who is selling physical gold at spot price?
Reply
Its been awhile since my last posting and the reason being that I kinda felt entertained by a bunch of clowns who really till now don’t have a clue what they are talking about…
Everyone is entitle to their own opinion and that is what makes the world an interesting place to live in…
The same people who are so adamant about Genneva’s credibility and sustainabilty are asking if gold is sold at spot price. Find me a company that operate a biz selling products at cost and i will find you a charitable organisation or should I say the person rsponsible is a complete moron.. In short, just plain IGNORANT
Since most of you are mathematical geniuses and you have proven beyond doubt that it is impossible for Genneva to payout XYZ % to customers, agents and operating costs and still profit from it then you should also ask yourselves is it logical to even consider doing this biz as a ponzi scheme so that they can con or scam? ponzi scheme will not work with this platform.
Sometimes you need to think out of the box.. eg. when MLM started more that 50years ago most people in that era believe it to be a scam but look at how many business today are using this platform and flourishing. Granted, there are also many scam company prolificated as a result of it..
Sorry running late got to go.. to be continued…..
Reply
sorry dude.
to me.. MLM and timeshare are also scams.
and to knitpick my question on buying gold at spot is LAME and shows lack of other arguments.
grow up.. obviously i meant if there is a significant markup in the price of the gold e.g. 20% like Genneva.
Reply
jazz Reply:
September 24th, 2009 at 1:44 am
to add on to the list. . . .On Cheong, Taka Jewellery, Poh Heng, etc… ….
The next time you walk past a Goldsmith shop, you will notice that they are also selling 999.9 gold with the same “significant markup”.
Reply
good work!
now you are comparing an investment opportunity with RETAIL SALES..
why not you say your neighbourhood chicken rice sells at a markup of 300% from cost so your gold company should markup 300% as well.
please use appropriate examples and draw parallels.
don’t skirt the issue and throw smokebombs with irrelevant points.
Reply
jazz Reply:
September 25th, 2009 at 12:56 am
If a goldsmith shop which also sells the exact same thing, PAMP Goldbar, is not an appropriate example, I really do not know what is. Perhaps, chicken rice, like you suggested?
Reply
Jazz.. I really think this guy don’t know what biz is all about
don’t even understand the meaning of retail price and still think Genneva is an investment company. Is it wrong for goldsmith shop to mark up their gold price?? It would be wrong if Genneva mark up 20% base on retail price instead of spot agree?
So since youthinkyouknow, why don’t you tell us what is fair for Genneva to set their gold price on???
Reply
Intheknow Reply:
September 24th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
B Plus,
It’s fine for a goldsmith shop or Genneva to make up their prices by 20% if it’s made known to buyers that they are paying for a service and/or normal business profit.
However, IT IS NOT FINE for Genneva to market themselves as an investment company and promising guaranteed returns when they have marked up the price of the gold.
For example, investment/advisory firms like banks have to declare their commission and markup in all their products.
A fair price for Genneva to set their gold price on would be at most 1-2% above what banks like UOB or KL is selling. If their business model is indeed as viable as they claim, why do they need to markup 20%?
Cheers,
Intheknow
Reply
these genneva hacks continue their efforts at misdirection.
Goldsmith shops sell gold jewellery at markup
Genneva tries to sell non-jewellery, bullion coin at Goldsmith prices
UOB KL and SG sells the same bullion coin at 30% less than Genneva
an example:
LV sells a 100% silk designer scarf for $1000
Geneva tries to sell a non-designer 100% silk scarf for $1000
Jusco sells the same non-designer 100% silk scarf for $700
all are same material – 100% silk
only a moron will buy from genneva
Reply
dm Reply:
September 24th, 2009 at 11:14 pm
As you said morons will buy from genneva so let it be , there are hundreds or maybe thousands of morons still enjoy 2% or 2.5% discount from genneva. cheers